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Rioting in Belfast




Hitch 22

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Turning working class Protestants against their working class Catholic neighbors was always the tactic used by the powers that be to maintain their position. In the 1930s Depression it was used to prevent a coherent progressive labor movement from emerging by creating paranoia among Protestant workers against Catholics.
The Protestant Ascendancy in Southern Ireland could not use that tactic to divide Irish nationalists in the late 19th and early 20th centuries but in the North the feudal landlord system survived the upheaval of 1916-1923 until the 1960s. It was key to shoring up the Union and preventing any talking between north and south and creating any links or friendships across the border that could have prevented the Troubles ever happening.
The great tragedy of Northern Ireland and Paisleyism is that Paisley and his DUP were a grassroots Presbyterian movement that challenged the aristocrats like Captain O'Neill and his ilk but could not find common cause with Catholics. The radical rise of Paisley was a direct parallel to the rise of the SDLP and later SF and the IRA.
In many ways Paisley was right to challenge the Catholic church which has been exposed a paedo ring - Paisley was talking about indecency and sexuality perversion in the Catholic church decades ago.
What is overlooked about the Troubles is that Paisley and his followers were in revolt against Stormont and London and the Protestant establishment. As the years passed the Ulster Unionists lost ground slowly but surely until they are now just a shadow of what they once were.
However unity between working class Protestants and Catholics was not possible because of the successful poisoning of politics in the province by sectarianism.
The DUP has successfully overthrown the stranglehold of the Ulster Unionists but sectarianism prevents solidarity between working class Protestants and Catholics who have more in common than they actually realize.
 
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PO'Neill

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Turning working class Protestants against their working class Catholic neighbors is always the tactical used by the powers that be to maintain their position.

The Protestant Ascendancy in Southern Ireland could not use that tactic to divide Irish nationalists.

In the North the reactionary landlord system survived until the 1960s.

The great tragedy of Northern Ireland and Paisleyism is that Paisley and his DUP were a grassroots Presbyterian movement that challenged the aristocrats like Captain O'Neill and his ilk but could not find common cause with Catholics.

In many ways Paisley was right to challenge the Catholic church which has been exposed a paedo ring - Paisley was talking about indecency and sexuality perversion in the Catholic church decades ago.

However unity between working class Protestants and Catholics was not possible because of the successful poisoning of politics in the province by sectarianism.

The DUP has successfully overthrown the stranglehold of the Ulster Unionists but sectarianism prevent solidarity between working class Protestants and Catholics who have more in common than they actually realize.
Paisley the great ' hero ' eh :roll: Your great hero was well aware of sex abuse going on in Kincora boys home which a loyalist political ally of his William McGrath wwas the ringleader of. Bollox as usual from Hitch.

William McGrath - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

PO'Neill

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picador

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Turning working class Protestants against their working class Catholic neighbors was always the tactic used by the powers that be to maintain their position. In the 1930s Depression it was used to prevent a coherent progressive labor movement from emerging by creating paranoia among Protestant workers against Catholics.
The Protestant Ascendancy in Southern Ireland could not use that tactic to divide Irish nationalists in the late 19th and early 20th centuries but in the North the feudal landlord system survived the upheaval of 1916-1923 until the 1960s. It was key to shoring up the Union and preventing any talking between north and south and creating any links or friendships across the border that could have prevented the Troubles ever happening.
The great tragedy of Northern Ireland and Paisleyism is that Paisley and his DUP were a grassroots Presbyterian movement that challenged the aristocrats like Captain O'Neill and his ilk but could not find common cause with Catholics. The radical rise of Paisley was a direct parallel to the rise of the SDLP and later SF and the IRA.
In many ways Paisley was right to challenge the Catholic church which has been exposed a paedo ring - Paisley was talking about indecency and sexuality perversion in the Catholic church decades ago.
What is overlooked about the Troubles is that Paisley and his followers were in revolt against Stormont and London and the Protestant establishment. As the years passed the Ulster Unionists lost ground slowly but surely until they are now just a shadow of what they once were.
However unity between working class Protestants and Catholics was not possible because of the successful poisoning of politics in the province by sectarianism.
The DUP has successfully overthrown the stranglehold of the Ulster Unionists but sectarianism prevents solidarity between working class Protestants and Catholics who have more in common than they actually realize.
Paisley is just one of a long-line of rabble rousing clerics. There'll be another along soon.
Hugh Hanna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

JohnD66

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Troll thread, trying to make out that the carry on in Limerick for one night is the equivalent of the sectarianism of the squatters from britain down the centuries ... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Different articles my friend.
 

Hitch 22

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Paisley is just one of a long-line of rabble rousing clerics. There'll be another along soon.
Hugh Hanna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Paisley was a rabble rouser but he broke the back of the Unionist establishment and established a grassroots working class unionist political party.
Catholics were treated like crap but the plight of the working class Protestant was not much better.
They got jobs that Catholics were denied but only to become slaves to the landlords and the industrialists.
To keep them in line the Unionist aristocrats could claim that it was creeping communist and Catholic plot to usurp the Union.
Handy to get working class Protestants to toe the line and accept their lot wasn't it?
While Paisley wanted to keep the Catholics in their place just as much as the aristocrats in the Ulster Unionist Party did, he also aimed his fire at the big shots at the top and brought down them down.
Paisley was a hero for working class Protestants not just because his fanatical hatred of Catholicism but because he stood up to the overlords who ruled Northern Ireland.
For the Unionist establishment Paisley and his followers was as big a treat as the IRA.
 

PO'Neill

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Paisley was a rabble rouser but he broke the back of the Unionist establishment and established a grassroots working class unionist political party.
Catholics were treated like crap but the plight of the working class Protestant was not much better.
They got jobs that Catholics were denied but only to become slaves to the landlords and the industrialists.
To keep them in line the Unionist aristocrats could claim that it was creeping communist and Catholic plot to usurp the Union.
Handy to get working class Protestants to toe the line and accept their lot wasn't it?
While Paisley wanted to keep the Catholics in their place just as much as the aristocrats in the Ulster Unionist Party did, he also aimed his fire at the big shots at the top and brought down them down.
Paisley was a hero for working class Protestants not just because his fanatical hatred of Catholicism but because he stood up to the overlords who ruled Northern Ireland.
For the Unionist establishment Paisley and his followers was as big a treat as the IRA.
A Socialist Zionist - whatever next !!!!!!
 

PO'Neill

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PO'Neill

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What are you talking about you nonsensical dribbling imbecilic droog?
Your also pro the Zionist entity occupying Palestine are you not ? And trying to build up Paisley as some sort of man of integrity :roll: ( I notice you avoided acknowledging Paisley and his knowledge about the Kincora child sex abuse scandal ;) )
 

Brenny

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In light of recent events, this is a short history of rioting in Belfast since the 19th century.

Belfast Riots, A Short History

See also Brian Hanley's article on the southern response in 1935 to riots in Belfast.

July 1935: Remember Belfast, Boycott the Orangemen!
Sean Farrell has written well and extensively on the subject of rioting in Ulster:

Rituals and Riots: Sectarian Violence and Political Culture in Ulster, 1784-1886 - Sean Farrell - Google Books

I was present for a talk that Sean gave a few years, unfortunately it was on the subject of Proselytism (interesting enough but not as juicy as rioting). Fortunately he was kind enough to talk to me later and gave me some direction for an article I was writing.

With regard to rioting, did you find that Belfast needed to be approached differently to southern Irish cities and that a different set of factors needed to be appreciated when explaining the rioting? I always thought that the newness of Belfast marked it out as different to southern Irish cities, particularly in the nineteenth century.
 

PO'Neill

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Sean Farrell has written well and extensively on the subject of rioting in Ulster:

Rituals and Riots: Sectarian Violence and Political Culture in Ulster, 1784-1886 - Sean Farrell - Google Books

I was present for a talk that Sean gave a few years, unfortunately it was on the subject of Proselytism (interesting enough but not as juicy as rioting). Fortunately he was kind enough to talk to me later and gave me some direction for an article I was writing.

With regard to rioting, did you find that Belfast needed to be approached differently to southern Irish cities and that a different set of factors needed to be appreciated when explaining the rioting? I always thought that the newness of Belfast marked it out as different to southern Irish cities, particularly in the nineteenth century.
Sectarian attacks on outnumbered and isolated Catholics wasn't just a Belfast phenomenon, it also happened in Larne, Portadown etc The Burnings by Pearse Lawlor is a very good account of the murders, looting etc carried out in the early 1920's in the north east ( no unionist mobs attacking nationalists in Strabane, Newry etc ). The Orange Order with their sectarian rabble rousing was always a factor. It shoud also be noted that when the nationalists in places such as Banbridge managed to fend the unionist mobs off, the British army were brought in to clear the way for the often drunken unionist mobs to recommence their attacks and looting.


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Burnings-1920-Pearse-Lawlor/dp/1856356124
 

JohnD66

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Sean Farrell has written well and extensively on the subject of rioting in Ulster:

Rituals and Riots: Sectarian Violence and Political Culture in Ulster, 1784-1886 - Sean Farrell - Google Books

I was present for a talk that Sean gave a few years, unfortunately it was on the subject of Proselytism (interesting enough but not as juicy as rioting). Fortunately he was kind enough to talk to me later and gave me some direction for an article I was writing.

With regard to rioting, did you find that Belfast needed to be approached differently to southern Irish cities and that a different set of factors needed to be appreciated when explaining the rioting? I always thought that the newness of Belfast marked it out as different to southern Irish cities, particularly in the nineteenth century.
That is a good book, I've been reading it on google books but must get my hands on a physical copy.

I think you're on to something there alright, Belfast was a new city in the 19th century, much more than Dublin and new communities banged into one another right away over politics, jobs and religion and parades from the early 1820s. There wasn't time to work out live and let live.

But I think the major difference from Dublin - where there was sectarian rioting in the 18th and 19th centuries but nowhere as much or as bad as as Belfast - was that the Protestant and Catholic working classes were both large. In Dublin the Protestant working class declined in numbers and the richer Protestants were never inclined to fight in the streets (are rich people ever?). Poorer people are also much more vulnerable to intimidation and loss of jobs/housing. What's interesting about the comparison is that in the early 20th century about 30% of Dublin's population was Protestant and about 30% of Belfast's Catholic. But you don't see anything like the the same pattern of street violence in Dublin.

Derry might be closer to Belfast but I think I'm right in saying that sectarian rioting there has still not been as bloody as in Belfast?
 

DrNightdub

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The great tragedy of Northern Ireland and Paisleyism is that Paisley and his DUP were a grassroots Presbyterian movement that challenged the aristocrats like Captain O'Neill and his ilk but could not find common cause with Catholics. The radical rise of Paisley was a direct parallel to the rise of the SDLP and later SF and the IRA.
Think you're confusing a couple of things here. The Paisleyite challenge to O'Neill wasn't about class differences within unionism but because O'Neill was perceived to be too liberal / reforming / basically soft on fenians. Plus which the rise of Paisley predated the Civil Rights campaign, let alone the re-emergence of the IRA or the formation of the SDLP.

It shoud also be noted that when the nationalists in places such as Banbridge managed to fend the unionist mobs off, the British army were brought in to clear the way for the often drunken unionist mobs to recommence their attacks and looting.
Equally it should be noted that in Lisburn, it was the intervention of the British army that prevented loyalist mobs burning down the RC church, a convent, etc. When the rioting spread to Belfast, again it was the army who intervened to quell it, both around the Clonard monastery and in Ballymacarrett / Short Strand. Ordinarily I'd be far from inclined to pat the British army on the back but it's got to be said, Michael Farrell got it spot-on in "Northern Ireland: The Orange State" when he described their behaviour in the 1920s as showing "fine impartiality". 1970 onwards was obviously a different story though.
 

Hitch 22

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Your also pro the Zionist entity occupying Palestine are you not ? And trying to build up Paisley as some sort of man of integrity :roll: ( I notice you avoided acknowledging Paisley and his knowledge about the Kincora child sex abuse scandal ;) )
I never said Paisley was a man of integrity. I was pointing out that the rise of Paisley was due to his support from working class Presbyterians who were unhappy with their Anglo-Irish Anglican aristocratic overlords.
 

Seanie Lemass

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Think you're confusing a couple of things here. The Paisleyite challenge to O'Neill wasn't about class differences within unionism but because O'Neill was perceived to be too liberal / reforming / basically soft on fenians. Plus which the rise of Paisley predated the Civil Rights campaign, let alone the re-emergence of the IRA or the formation of the SDLP.

Exactly. The split in the IRA and their relative unpreparedness for what hapened in August 1969 was due to a similar misreading of Paisleyism as Hitch.

The CP element around Goulding described Paisleyism as 'progressive' - in what bizarre way they never exactly described - and blamed 'ultra leftists' and 'right wing Catholics' and 'Fianna Fáil agents' for the events of August 1969 and afterwards.

Hence their vicious reaction to recent books exposing their dogmatic ineptitude.
 

Hitch 22

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Exactly. The split in the IRA and their relative unpreparedness for what hapened in August 1969 was due to a similar misreading of Paisleyism as Hitch.

The CP element around Goulding described Paisleyism as 'progressive' - in what bizarre way they never exactly described - and blamed 'ultra leftists' and 'right wing Catholics' and 'Fianna Fáil agents' for the events of August 1969 and afterwards.

Hence their vicious reaction to recent books exposing their dogmatic ineptitude.
The Paisleyite Presbyterian grassroots wanted to throw off the Anglo-Irish Anglican leadership of Unionism but their attitude to Catholics was much more hardline. The leadership of moderate Protestant faiths in the 1960s were attracted by ecumenism and some left-wing theologians thought that Vatican II would herald a rapid evolution of Catholicism into a more modern movement.
The liberation theology that became vogue among left wingers attracted young Catholics and Protestants alike.
Paisley and his followers saw this is a satanic Catholic Marxist conspiracy.
Paisley gave a memorable speech about the supposed appearance of an inflatable penis of Baal at a youth festival in Europe that supposedly demonstrated the hidden satanic conspiracy at the heart of left wing Christian movements.
Their revolt against the unionist leadership was driven by ultra-conservative Christianity primarily but there was certainly a class divide with poorer working class Presbyterians being more conservatively religious than a more Anglican middle and upper class.
When Catholics began to benefit from the welfare state in the 1960s, get more educated and more politically active the Protestant working class saw this as a plot by a blacksliding "Lundy" Unionist leadership and godless government in London.
The Protestant working class framed their anxiety in terms of the first settlers in Ulster in the 17th century who had to contend with rebellious Irish Catholics, a treacherous Royalist government and a wider Catholic conspiracy in Europe.
However outside influences were superficial so that if you were murdered by a sectarian UVF gunman with 17th century religious attitudes it meant that the last thing you would notice apart from the gun in his hand before he shot you was that he wore long hair and flared trousers
 
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meriwether

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I never said Paisley was a man of integrity. I was pointing out that the rise of Paisley was due to his support from working class Presbyterians who were unhappy with their Anglo-Irish Anglican aristocratic overlords.
What the fu5k?
 

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