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Roman Catholic appointed Canon to St Patrick’s Cathedral


St Disibod

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For the first time since the Reformation a Roman Catholic priest, Fr Enda McDonagh, has been appointed as a canon to the St Patrick’s Cathedral chapter.

And the ecumenicalism doesn’t end there, a former Presbyterian moderator, Dr Ken Newell, was also appointed a canon.

Canons are selected by the incumbent dean and chapter, and upon appointment they may participate fully in the cathedral’s decision-making body on ecclesiastical matters (for the three F’s- finance, furniture and fittings- laypeople are elected to be involved). So now the Church of Ireland’s national cathedral will have two members from outside the Church of Ireland’s ranks. Surely this is a welcome step. Alongside the community level, there are movements afoot at the physical level as extensive works are planned to emphasis the Cathedral’s presence upon the Dublin landscape (see thread).

Let’s just hope they don’t move the Guinness brewery as was mooted last month by Diageo. If I could choose one scene that encapsulates Dublin’s better side, it would be the garden beside St Patrick’s Cathedral when the bells are tolling and there is a strong smell of hops in the air. A clear winter’s morning would really finish it off- every sense cries Dublin!

Anyway, back on topic. Some time ago the Dean of St Patrick’s suggested using the cathedral for Roman Catholic masses: an idea shot down hastily by the Roman Catholic Cardinal Desmond Connell. Following that was the occupation of the cathedral by Afghan refugees, a somewhat embarrassing affair for the Church of Ireland and St Patrick’s. Finally, is the national cathedral going in the right direction?
 

MichaelR

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Jun 1, 2006
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I don't really see the point. People who want to be Roman Catholic will be Roman Catholic and they have their churches. How many RCs anyway will want a service under the plethora of old Union Jacks in one corner, the portrait of Douglas Hyde in the other, and the Swift expo in between, but without their beloved icons and statues?

I would prefer to see more involvement of various Protestant communities including immigrant ones. Bring on the Nigerians!
 

Insider2007

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Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
213
St Disibod said:
For the first time since the Reformation a Roman Catholic priest, Fr Enda McDonagh, has been appointed as a canon to the St Patrick’s Cathedral chapter.

And the ecumenicalism doesn’t end there, a former Presbyterian moderator, Dr Ken Newell, was also appointed a canon.

Canons are selected by the incumbent dean and chapter, and upon appointment they may participate fully in the cathedral’s decision-making body on ecclesiastical matters (for the three F’s- finance, furniture and fittings- laypeople are elected to be involved). So now the Church of Ireland’s national cathedral will have two members from outside the Church of Ireland’s ranks. Surely this is a welcome step. Alongside the community level, there are movements afoot at the physical level as extensive works are planned to emphasis the Cathedral’s presence upon the Dublin landscape (see thread).

Let’s just hope they don’t move the Guinness brewery as was mooted last month by Diageo. If I could choose one scene that encapsulates Dublin’s better side, it would be the garden beside St Patrick’s Cathedral when the bells are tolling and there is a strong smell of hops in the air. A clear winter’s morning would really finish it off- every sense cries Dublin!

Anyway, back on topic. Some time ago the Dean of St Patrick’s suggested using the cathedral for Roman Catholic masses: an idea shot down hastily by the Roman Catholic Cardinal Desmond Connell. Following that was the occupation of the cathedral by Afghan refugees, a somewhat embarrassing affair for the Church of Ireland and St Patrick’s. Finally, is the national cathedral going in the right direction?
Given the Catholic Church's appalling record in terms of treatment of historic churches (remember Killarney Cathedral, Monaghan Cathedral, and its gutting of a perfectly preserved 18th century church in Cork, I hope the C of I keep the Catholics away from anything to do with the Cathedral's furnishings. Thankfully neither Christchurch nor St Patrick's was handed back to the Catholic Church. Can you imagine what they would do to the interior, given their behaviour in their own churches.
 

St Disibod

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MichaelR said:
I don't really see the point. People who want to be Roman Catholic will be Roman Catholic and they have their churches.

[...]

I would prefer to see more involvement of various Protestant communities including immigrant ones. Bring on the Nigerians!
Well now the congregation of St Patrick's will get a sermon from a leading Catholic theologian and a leading Presbyterian ecumenicist twice a year.

And the Dean used one of the Hugenot commemoration services to argue that the Cathedral should open itself up for use by the newly arrived Christian sects in Ireland. He even suggested the money for this (salaries for clergy etc.) should come out of the Church of Ireland's coppers, at least until they can set themselves up. This is what was done when the Hugenots arrived, and there's the connection.
 

SPN

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MichaelR said:
Bring on the Nigerians!
You don't know a whole lot about Nigerian culture, do you?
 

St Disibod

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Insider2007 said:
Given the Catholic Church's appalling record in terms of treatment of historic churches (remember Killarney Cathedral, Monaghan Cathedral, and its gutting of a perfectly preserved 18th century church in Cork, I hope the C of I keep the Catholics away from anything to do with the Cathedral's furnishings. Thankfully neither Christchurch nor St Patrick's was handed back to the Catholic Church. Can you imagine what they would do to the interior, given their behaviour in their own churches.
In any Church of Ireland parish/cathedral, a select vestry looks after the physical/financial side of things. Every layperson on the vestry has to seek re-election within the year. No one would dare sign off on the sort of gaudy work that has been done in some of the Roman Catholic Cathedrals. What the clergy there were thinking is just beyond me. A congregation would simply not allow it, and too right they are.

Though both St Patrick's and Christ Church Cathedrals were almost entirely re-built during the eighteenth or nineteenth centuries- the former by the Guinness family and the latter by the Roe family (a whiskey business that went bust as a result- or at least the owner bankrupted himself on the project). Who knows, perhaps people grumbled about the modernism of the new designs back then.
 

Insider2007

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St Disibod said:
Insider2007 said:
Given the Catholic Church's appalling record in terms of treatment of historic churches (remember Killarney Cathedral, Monaghan Cathedral, and its gutting of a perfectly preserved 18th century church in Cork, I hope the C of I keep the Catholics away from anything to do with the Cathedral's furnishings. Thankfully neither Christchurch nor St Patrick's was handed back to the Catholic Church. Can you imagine what they would do to the interior, given their behaviour in their own churches.
In any Church of Ireland parish/cathedral, a select vestry looks after the physical/financial side of things. Every layperson on the vestry has to seek re-election within the year. No one would dare sign off on the sort of gaudy work that has been done in some of the Roman Catholic Cathedrals. What the clergy there were thinking is just beyond me. A congregation would simply not allow it, and too right they are.

Though both St Patrick's and Christ Church Cathedrals were almost entirely re-built during the eighteenth or nineteenth centuries- the former by the Guinness family and the latter by the Roe family (a whiskey business that went bust as a result- or at least the owner bankrupted himself on the project). Who knows, perhaps people grumbled about the modernism of the new designs back then.
They weren't modern, though sadly it did mean removing a lot of the genuine old interior to create pseudo-old interiors.

Only the Irish Catholic Church could do as happened in Killarney: rip out a spectacular Victorian interior designed by the world famous Pugin (of Westminster fame), dump it in a skip, and replace it with substandard 1970s crap. All over Ireland historic interiors in Catholic churches have been raped. In Galway recently, while they (reluctantly) let a spectacularly beautiful reredos survive, they hit it behind a screen that looks like it was bought in Ikea!!! :roll:
 

St Disibod

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Insider2007 said:
They weren't modern, though sadly it did mean removing a lot of the genuine old interior to create pseudo-old interiors.
Surely the ceilings must be higher than they were. I wouldn't have thought fifteenth or sixteenth century Dublin would have buildings as tall as the Cathedrals are today. I could be wrong of course.

And I do agree with you on the gutting of Catholic churches. It is a shame. In St Patrick's the seat used by King William III is just sitting behind a pillar with just an A4 sheet on it indicating it is anything more than just a seat. Such little tidbits of history would be swept away by the constant change encouraged in Catholic parishes in Ireland.
 

MacEHaVelly

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Interesting development. Maybe it is time for a National Cathedral. It is extraordinary the amount of very ancient churches the COI holds. I suppose given the history, that's understandable. A COI friend of mine is deeply uncomfortable with this and would like an official recognition from his Church of the wrongs of the penal times and that the COI would make an important symbolic gesture to The Roman Catholic people of Ireland.

Surely it's time for the sharing of certain churches around the country?
 

scotusone

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sorry folks but i think the anglican establishment has had rather more negative impact on the catholic architectural heritage of these islands than a thousand post vatican 2 philistines .
 

St Disibod

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MacEHaVelly said:
Interesting development. Maybe it is time for a National Cathedral. It is extraordinary the amount of very ancient churches the COI holds.

[...]

Surely it's time for the sharing of certain churches around the country?
Hey, we stole them fair and square!

On the sharing issue, there was some talk of handing one of the Dublin cathedrals over to the Roman Catholic Church. Church of Ireland opinion was fairly divided on it, many were willing to lose a cathedral, but there was little agreement on which one. It was the Roman Catholic Church that shut down the conversation though by saying 'thanks but no thanks' to the proposals.
 

scotusone

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Does anyone know why the catholic diocese of dublin never went through with its plan to build a cathedral on Merrion Square ?
 

st333ve

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Why do we all have to be considered "Roman Catholics".

Im an irish catholic.

Protestants arnt considered "London Protestants" Etc.
 

MacEHaVelly

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st333ve said:
Why do we all have to be considered "Roman Catholics".

Im an irish catholic.

Protestants arnt considered "London Protestants" Etc.

St333ve, it's late-perhaps you're tired after a long week or something?

Therefore i take it that the above was not really intended as an intelligent addition to this thread, but a mere slip of the keyboard. :roll:
 

st333ve

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This is a slip of the keyboard.

etiher relpy to waht smoeone aksed or dnot btoher rpelynig atlal.
 

scotusone

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in ireland as FSL Lyons commented the prefix roman has a pejorative connotation but this is not the case in other european countries . it refers to catholics of the Roman or Western rite as opposed to say Maronites or Malabar catholics .
 

JCSkinner

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MichaelR said:
I don't really see the point. People who want to be Roman Catholic will be Roman Catholic and they have their churches. How many RCs anyway will want a service under the plethora of old Union Jacks in one corner, the portrait of Douglas Hyde in the other, and the Swift expo in between, but without their beloved icons and statues?

I would prefer to see more involvement of various Protestant communities including immigrant ones. Bring on the Nigerians!
It's evident that you're not Irish nor Catholic, Michael. Christ Church is Dublin's cathedral. There is still no Catholic cathedral (just the St Mary's pro-cathedral). Christ Church was created as a Catholic cathedral and any attempt to involve the majority of Dubliner Christian worshippers in it is to be welcomed.
The Nigerians can go to Lagos cathedral if they like.
 

MacEHaVelly

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JCSkinner said:
MichaelR said:
I don't really see the point. People who want to be Roman Catholic will be Roman Catholic and they have their churches. How many RCs anyway will want a service under the plethora of old Union Jacks in one corner, the portrait of Douglas Hyde in the other, and the Swift expo in between, but without their beloved icons and statues?

I would prefer to see more involvement of various Protestant communities including immigrant ones. Bring on the Nigerians!
It's evident that you're not Irish nor Catholic, Michael. Christ Church is Dublin's cathedral. There is still no Catholic cathedral (just the St Mary's pro-cathedral). Christ Church was created as a Catholic cathedral and any attempt to involve the majority of Dubliner Christian worshippers in it is to be welcomed.
The Nigerians can go to Lagos cathedral if they like.[/quote]


No wonder the SDLP is in the dumps if it attracts such views. On that logic where should the hundreds of thousands of Irish Roman Catholics ,who live abroad-where should they celebrate their faith? cop on skinner
 

Insider2007

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st333ve said:
Why do we all have to be considered "Roman Catholics".

Im an irish catholic.

Protestants arnt considered "London Protestants" Etc.
Because "Catholic" applies to anyone part of a church that is linked to the Apostolic Succession. Roman Catholic means that branch of the broad Catholic Communion linked to the authority of the Bishop of Rome (the Pope). Using "Catholic" for "Roman Catholic" is offensive to the hundreds of millions who aren't part of the Roman part of Catholicism but are part of the Apostolic Succession.
 
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