• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please contact us.

Rumour of closure of St. James's Gate Brewery?

Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
88
I heard this during the two days of eating and drinking that Guinness(Diageo), might be selling the premises at St. James's Gate. Has anyone heard any mention of this, obviously it has always been a possibility, but what would the city be like if the brewery was torn down and some bloody apartments or shopping centre was put in? Is it ever a possibility that the government would purchase the land and preserve it?
 


fergalr

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
354
Yup, I heard that months back. There's a plan to sell James' Gate and move to a greenfield site in North Dublin.. especially if the port heads up to Balbriggan.
 

drbob1972

Active member
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
257
Diageo some time ago mentioned they were considering several options as part of a business review but didn't say that they were (or were not) considering James Gate's future as part of that review. i think that its rather unlikely that they would shut or move to an alternative location, its heavily marketed as the "home of the black stuff" and is an integral part of the brand, thats not to say it won't happen but i don;t think its likely
 

Catalpa

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 10, 2004
Messages
10,257
Its being doing the rounds for a while - if it makes commercial sense then its likely to happen.

Having your main distribution base stuck in the middle of an ever increasingly clogged city costs money.

Sentiment will count for nothing here but if it is sold off then perhaps a small presence will be retained on site for forms sake.

Only thing that might stop it in its tracks is a huge downturn in property values next year.

In fact given the way sales of Guinness continue to decline its possible the brand will effectively be gone within a generation anyway....
:?
 

kerrynorth

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
1,525
I read at the weekend that they were looking at a number of possible sites. Leixlip was mentioned.
 

alonso

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2006
Messages
2,550
It's gonna be a battle between sentiment and economics. The site could be worth up to a billion euro, which is a ludicrous amount of money to turn away. There's real potential for a great city quarter to be based around the proposed Heuston DART, Luas and intercity rail hub. It's partly earmarked for development in the Heuston gateway framework plan, but not in it's entirety. We could have high rise, new streets and linkages, great new urban spaces (finally) and a whole district based around pedestrians, cyclists and public transport - the sort of place that would put Docklands in it's rightful place as a shambles and a wasted opportunity.
 

GJG

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 10, 2006
Messages
3,108
Website
blog.hereshow.ie
Leixlip and offshore are out of the question, because Diageo know that the brand value of Guinness is very closely associated with its Dublin image. They could not sustain the bad publicity of losing that. Nothing to do with sentimentality by the way, other than the customers' sentimentality - for Diageo, it's a straight commercial decision. That said, they could probably sustain a move to another site as long as they could say that it was 'in' Dublin, be it city or county.

The real issue is how Diageo have destroyed a whole quarter of inner-city Dublin. With 70 per cent or more of their site derelict, they have dragged down the whole south-west party of Dublin city centre by forcing down values and eliminating many possible land uses, and attracting crime and anti-social behaviour. You only have to look at Victoria Quay, the south quay of the Liffey closest to Heuston Station. It is a grim, derelict and dreadful place. Other cities celebrate their riverfronts. On Victoria Quay, any pedestrian is lucky if all they suffer is being gassed with the fumes of the HGVs roaring past.

Guinness is a massively profitable product. Dublin should not tolerate this multinational destroying a whole quarter of the city.
 

alonso

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2006
Messages
2,550
GJG said:
The real issue is how Diageo have destroyed a whole quarter of inner-city Dublin. With 70 per cent or more of their site derelict, they have dragged down the whole south-west party of Dublin city centre by forcing down values and eliminating many possible land uses, and attracting crime and anti-social behaviour. You only have to look at Victoria Quay, the south quay of the Liffey closest to Heuston Station. It is a grim, derelict and dreadful place. Other cities celebrate their riverfronts. On Victoria Quay, any pedestrian is lucky if all they suffer is being gassed with the fumes of the HGVs roaring past.

Guinness is a massively profitable product. Dublin should not tolerate this multinational destroying a whole quarter of the city.
Yeh. That's a very good point. Problem is that Guinness is seen as a prestige blue chip product for Dublin, and a pretty big reason tourists come here. As such, statements like yours rarely get a chance to be aired. It's similar in a way to the disgraceful treatment of Pearse St by TCD over the decades (now being addressed). Victoria Quay is a dead frontage, killed by Guinness. I couldn't agree more on this issue. Hopefully whatever happens here, and in the Digital HUb sites will help bring some life back to the SW inner city.
 

mr_anderson

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
9,693
This was in the press months ago.
Ive no doubt they will sell up and move outside of the city.
They will probably keep a token guinness 'musuem' for the visitors, but as to production in the city centre, its time is long gone.
 

jerryp

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
95
The Sunday Tribune had this story during the summer. Seemingly, the possibility of a greenfield site near the relocated port was being considered.
 

Twin Towers

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 14, 2005
Messages
5,803
Balbriggan seems a likely site whether or not the port moves. Easy proximity to the M1, port tunnel and export markets. The Guinness Storehouse® is Ireland's biggest visitor attraction and a huge money maker and would stay where it is.
 

alonso

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2006
Messages
2,550
Yeh Balbriggan/Bremore will be the best place for it. TT there'll also more than likely be the Outer Orbital Road near it too to link to the rest of the radial road network. The tourist element will have to stay in the city centre though. However I look forward to seeing a 30 storey black glass tower with a creamy top 4 storeys located there. That'd be great. Arthur Towers!
 

soubresauts

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2007
Messages
3,081
Diageo has been so successful in making people think that 21st century Guinness is the same as 100 years ago that I'm sure they can sell St James's Gate and still increase their profits, not to mention the sale windfall. As far as I know, the brewery used to employ about 12,000 people, but the current figure is less than 2000. (Does someone have the exact figures?)

Diageo trades on a history which bears little relation to the present-day operation. Many people still believe that the brewery uses its own special supply of water from a source west of Dublin. The truth is that for many years it has been using Dublin's tap water (see here), which is not good at all -- contaminated with fluoride (which Guinness doesn't remove), aluminium and chlorine compounds, and god-knows-what.

So we can assert that the following paragraph on the Guinness website is nonsense and a blatant deception:

"The pure, fresh water for the St James's Gate Brewery in Dublin comes not from the nearby River Liffey but from springs in the Wicklow Mountains (which are also known as St James's Wells). Like Arthur Guinness before us, we prize our water for its purity and softness. In fact, it's so important to us, we call it 'liquor'." (web page here)

There's similar nonsense on the Wikipedia page about Guinness: "The water used to brew Guinness comes from Lady's Well in the Wicklow Mountains..."

The grain of truth is that Dublin's tap water originates in the Wicklow Mountains of course.

Water is a very important ingredient of beer. It's a pity that Diageo can't be honest about it. But they've been getting away with the deception for years, so I guess they think they can get away with anything now.

I don't drink Guinness. I drink the finest German organic beers, which are much better and much cheaper (69 cents per half-litre).
 

White Horse

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Messages
7,012
alonso said:
Yeh Balbriggan/Bremore will be the best place for it. TT there'll also more than likely be the Outer Orbital Road near it too to link to the rest of the radial road network. The tourist element will have to stay in the city centre though. However I look forward to seeing a 30 storey black glass tower with a creamy top 4 storeys located there. That'd be great. Arthur Towers!
I've heard rumours locally that the Great Northern Brewery in Dundalk is now being considered.

It is on the Belfast-Rosslare railway line, has easy access to NI, and is only 10 minutes away from the deep water port in Greenore.

It has the advantage of being the second largest brewery in Ireland and Dundalk has a rich brewing heritage.

The word is that the additional investment to increase it's capacity is a fraction of that to build on a green field site.

http://www.diageo.ie/Company/Brewing/Du ... ingDundalk
 

joel

Well-known member
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
803
soubresauts said:
Diageo has been so successful in making people think that 21st century Guinness is the same as 100 years ago that I'm sure they can sell St James's Gate and still increase their profits, not to mention the sale windfall. As far as I know, the brewery used to employ about 12,000 people, but the current figure is less than 2000. (Does someone have the exact figures?)

Diageo trades on a history which bears little relation to the present-day operation. Many people still believe that the brewery uses its own special supply of water from a source west of Dublin. The truth is that for many years it has been using Dublin's tap water (see here), which is not good at all -- contaminated with fluoride (which Guinness doesn't remove), aluminium and chlorine compounds, and god-knows-what.

So we can assert that the following paragraph on the Guinness website is nonsense and a blatant deception:

"The pure, fresh water for the St James's Gate Brewery in Dublin comes not from the nearby River Liffey but from springs in the Wicklow Mountains (which are also known as St James's Wells). Like Arthur Guinness before us, we prize our water for its purity and softness. In fact, it's so important to us, we call it 'liquor'." (web page here)

There's similar nonsense on the Wikipedia page about Guinness: "The water used to brew Guinness comes from Lady's Well in the Wicklow Mountains..."

The grain of truth is that Dublin's tap water originates in the Wicklow Mountains of course.

Water is a very important ingredient of beer. It's a pity that Diageo can't be honest about it. But they've been getting away with the deception for years, so I guess they think they can get away with anything now.

I don't drink Guinness. I drink the finest German organic beers, which are much better and much cheaper (69 cents per half-litre).

Sorry to p. on your bonfire but doctors have recently said that Guinness is indeed "good for you"! :D - so, stick that in your water-pipe!....
 

soubresauts

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2007
Messages
3,081
joel said:
Sorry to p. on your bonfire but doctors have recently said that Guinness is indeed "good for you"! :D - so, stick that in your pipe!....
Doctors, no less? You mean, real medical doctors? Stunning.
 

joel

Well-known member
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
803
soubresauts said:
joel said:
Sorry to p. on your bonfire but doctors have recently said that Guinness is indeed "good for you"! :D - so, stick that in your pipe!....
Doctors, no less? You mean, real medical doctors? Stunning.

Yes, REAL Doctors! - you don't know what you're missing..... :lol:
 

mollox

Active member
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
202
alonso said:
GJG said:
The real issue is how Diageo have destroyed a whole quarter of inner-city Dublin. With 70 per cent or more of their site derelict, they have dragged down the whole south-west party of Dublin city centre by forcing down values and eliminating many possible land uses, and attracting crime and anti-social behaviour. You only have to look at Victoria Quay, the south quay of the Liffey closest to Heuston Station. It is a grim, derelict and dreadful place. Other cities celebrate their riverfronts. On Victoria Quay, any pedestrian is lucky if all they suffer is being gassed with the fumes of the HGVs roaring past.

Guinness is a massively profitable product. Dublin should not tolerate this multinational destroying a whole quarter of the city.
Yeh. That's a very good point. Problem is that Guinness is seen as a prestige blue chip product for Dublin, and a pretty big reason tourists come here. As such, statements like yours rarely get a chance to be aired. It's similar in a way to the disgraceful treatment of Pearse St by TCD over the decades (now being addressed). Victoria Quay is a dead frontage, killed by Guinness. I couldn't agree more on this issue. Hopefully whatever happens here, and in the Digital HUb sites will help bring some life back to the SW inner city.
Is it true that they have a 60 acre site at St James' Gate?
If so, they only need to keep a couple of acres for a tourist experience venue and move production somewhere else in the greater Dublin area (for branding/ marketing purposes). Selling the rest would allow for redevelopment of that area of the city.

PS: TCD didn't just kill Pearse St, they killed one side of Westland Row also. Until such time as TCD-owned premises on Pearse St & Westland Row are accessed by their "front doors", rather than from the Trinity side, these streets will remain largely dead.
 

soubresauts

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2007
Messages
3,081
joel said:
soubresauts said:
joel said:
... doctors have recently said that Guinness is indeed "good for you"! ...
Doctors, no less? You mean, real medical doctors? Stunning.
Yes, REAL Doctors! - you don't know what you're missing..... :lol:
What am I missing? Guinness is fluoridated. Doctors are supposed to know about the toxicity of fluoride, a cumulative poison. Fluoridation is contrary to fundamental medical principles. There is not one Irish medical doctor willing to defend fluoridation in public debate.

The last "medical" professional to try to defend fluoridation in public was TCD dentist Dr Jacinta McLoughlin who was shown up by John Gormley on RTE Prime Time in February; see it here. (Unfortunately, with Fianna Fáil being the one party in favour of fluoridation, Gormley now doesn't want to know about the issue.)

Anyone drinking lots of (Dublin-brewed) Guinness is going to sustain health damage from the fluoride.
 

GJG

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 10, 2006
Messages
3,108
Website
blog.hereshow.ie
mollox said:
alonso said:
GJG said:
The real issue is how Diageo have destroyed a whole quarter of inner-city Dublin. With 70 per cent or more of their site derelict, they have dragged down the whole south-west party of Dublin city centre by forcing down values and eliminating many possible land uses, and attracting crime and anti-social behaviour. You only have to look at Victoria Quay, the south quay of the Liffey closest to Heuston Station. It is a grim, derelict and dreadful place. Other cities celebrate their riverfronts. On Victoria Quay, any pedestrian is lucky if all they suffer is being gassed with the fumes of the HGVs roaring past.

Guinness is a massively profitable product. Dublin should not tolerate this multinational destroying a whole quarter of the city.
Yeh. That's a very good point. Problem is that Guinness is seen as a prestige blue chip product for Dublin, and a pretty big reason tourists come here. As such, statements like yours rarely get a chance to be aired. ... Victoria Quay is a dead frontage, killed by Guinness. I couldn't agree more on this issue. Hopefully whatever happens here, and in the Digital HUb sites will help bring some life back to the SW inner city.
Is it true that they have a 60 acre site at St James' Gate?
If so, they only need to keep a couple of acres for a tourist experience venue and move production somewhere else in the greater Dublin area (for branding/ marketing purposes). Selling the rest would allow for redevelopment of that area of the city.
I don't know the exact measurements, but I'd say that 60 acres is a conservative estimate. A huge proportion of it is derelict, mostly because of changes in brewing technology, the brewery footprint is now much smaller. There used be two entirely separate breweries on the site, but both are now totally derelict.

Also, Guinness have recently (if you believe the boards) sold several sites between James's Street and the river, so I don't know what they are up to there. Certainly the unneeded land is worth billions, but if you are a company like Diageo, holding onto it and keeping it derelict isn't a bad idea, in an era when land prices are increasing much faster than the bank interest rate. Now that isn't the case any more and their thinking may change, but we should start looking at a penal tax on unused land.
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top