Russian online mind-games and wind-ups

McTell

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
8,606
Official or gifted amateurs, you decide. The latest being Corbyn's fake docs brandished on tv ... and there's an norn-irish side to the wind-ups as well.




 


bormotello

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Messages
12,624
i.e. Russia is doing a job of lazy pro-establishment journalists who don't want to expose government lies and propaganda
 

cobhguy

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2010
Messages
2,706
Official or gifted amateurs, you decide. The latest being Corbyn's fake docs brandished on tv ... and there's an norn-irish side to the wind-ups as well.




Where did it show that the documents Corbyn used were fake.
 

Lumpy Talbot

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
34,678
Twitter
No
How did we decide these documents were 'fake'? According to the linked newspaper articles they are referred to as 'confidential British Government documents'.

That's a very different description from the description of 'fake' used by the OP who seems to be quite confident of the fake status of these documents without quite explaining why he or she describes them as fake.

What evidence does the OP have which led them to declare the documents as 'fake'?
 

Lumpy Talbot

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
34,678
Twitter
No
On the wider subject of Russia's recently found adeptness at influencing either through spying, surprisingly swift moves on the geopolitical stage compared to the sluggishness of the past, there was a step-change in evidence in Russia's ability to fight its wars in the 'fourth space'.

The old Soviet era was run by old men out of date so they were always ponderous and slow in comparison to the western governments who were much more used to deploying PR and public affairs influencing initiatives.

I suspect that there is some new management about over the last ten years in Russia's handling of the fourth space, and whoever they are, they seem to be very good at what they do.

They totally sideswiped Washington on Syria at the 11th hour when Washington was tub-thumping for a coalition, they appear to be causing widespread panic over 'fake news' in Washington, London, Berlin and Brussels. The Crimean takeover was an absolute classic, carried out very well, and with the west totally oblivious to the move until it was over.

This is incredibly nimble stuff from the Russians
 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,727
I think such a phrase as "mind-games" and "wind-ups" diminishes the insidiousness and invidiousness of the reality.

Russian propaganda has been extremely successful in using our own values against us, and dividing our society.

They have moved massive events their way, recruited legions of useful fools always chanting online what is in their (Putin's) interest.

To say nothing of what they have achieved on the domestic front, using highly sophisticated government media control to tap into and manipulate currents of nationalism, social conservatism, orthodox Christianity etc.

 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,727
Last edited:
Last edited:
That said, the international manipulation is nothing new, just massively invigorated by the new media technology.

When it became clear by the late 70's that they had lost the cold war, they became active with the Western left’s ‘peace campaigns’ and 'anti-missile' movements. According to the tranche of Soviet secret documents obtained by Vladimir Bukovsky, these movements were all being manipulated and secretly orchestrated from Moscow.

Just like today you can look to groups say like the "Stop the War Coalition", see their association with and genesis from the Socialist Workers Party, and of people like Andrew Murray (who chaired the STWC), who sits on the politburo of the Communist Party of Britain, and writes articles glorifying Stalin etc. (Of course the massive 2003 protests also were sponsored by the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (another Russian propaganda coup from the 70's), along with co-sponsors the Muslim Association of Britain).
 

rainmaker

Administrator
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
26,117
i.e. Russia is doing a job of lazy pro-establishment journalists who don't want to expose government lies and propaganda
Yes, because Russia is a bastion of the principle of a free press.

There is not really almost two dozen journalists critical of Putin and the government who have been murdered since he came to power.
 

rainmaker

Administrator
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
26,117
Surely the UK and USA are doing the exact same thing :censored:
Do you have credible evidence of five eyes interference in Russian domestic political processes?

Do feel free to share it.
 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,727
Surely the UK and USA are doing the exact same thing :censored:
What afflicts the UK, US and Western media is quite different. It is institutional. E.g.

a. Deeply entrenched routines and habits in both the profession of western journalism, and the corporate workplace in which it is usually practiced.

b. Media outlets need to survive in a market-lead economy (so business and entertainment priorities tend to dominate)

d. They must keep advertisers happy (who promote values of materialism and consumerism as well as a conservative respect for the status quo.)

e. News is looked on purely as a commodity that must be sold...

Etc.
 

Eire1976

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
13,890
What afflicts the UK, US and Western media is quite different. It is institutional. E.g.

a. Deeply entrenched routines and habits in both the profession of western journalism, and the corporate workplace in which it is usually practiced.

b. Media outlets need to survive in a market-lead economy (so business and entertainment priorities tend to dominate)

d. They must keep advertisers happy (who promote values of materialism and consumerism as well as a conservative respect for the status quo.)

e. News is looked on purely as a commodity that must be sold...

Etc.
Thank you for your insight on the matter, greatly appreciated.

The CIA are renowned for having agents in media outlets everywhere, not easy to prove, but admitted as much by the CIA.

Operation mockingbird for example.
 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,727
The CIA are renowned for having agents in media outlets everywhere, not easy to prove, but admitted as much by the CIA.

Operation mockingbird for example.
"Renowned" is pushing it - a lot.

Operation mockingbird targeted a wiretap at two newsmen who had been quoting classified materials of the CIA, including Top Secret and Special Intelligence.

Allegedly, during the cold war, the CIA surreptitiously would place reports, developed from their own intelligence, for the use of US reporters. To try and counter the KGB doing the same to US reporters.

In tandem, still all during the 1970's, in response to exposes, the CIA stated, "As a general policy, the Agency will not make any clandestine use of staff employees of U.S. publications which have a substantial impact or influence on public opinion", and, "effective immediately, CIA will not enter into any paid or contractual relationship with any full-time or part-time news correspondent accredited by any U.S. news service, newspaper, periodical, radio or television network or station"...

But that's all a very long way away from the overt direct state control of the media in Russia, a media expressly planned, set up and dedicated to propagating both a national and international propaganda, with the strategy and tactics of same dictated from the top, from Putin himself.
 

Eire1976

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
13,890
"Renowned" is pushing it - a lot.

Operation mockingbird targeted a wiretap at two newsmen who had been quoting classified materials of the CIA, including Top Secret and Special Intelligence.

Allegedly, during the cold war, the CIA surreptitiously would place reports, developed from their own intelligence, for the use of US reporters. To try and counter the KGB doing the same to US reporters.

In tandem, still all during the 1970's, in response to exposes, the CIA stated, "As a general policy, the Agency will not make any clandestine use of staff employees of U.S. publications which have a substantial impact or influence on public opinion", and, "effective immediately, CIA will not enter into any paid or contractual relationship with any full-time or part-time news correspondent accredited by any U.S. news service, newspaper, periodical, radio or television network or station"...

But that's all a very long way away from the overt direct state control of the media in Russia, a media expressly planned, set up and dedicated to propagating both a national and international propaganda, with the strategy and tactics of same dictated from the top, from Putin himself.
So the articles that I read, stating that the CIA admitted that they had "people" in nearly all major US publications is a hoax and they were all good lads allowing journalists to write the truth?

And then this


Does the UK do the same, in its interests, wouldn't some of them be on here?
 

Golah veNekhar

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 16, 2018
Messages
3,737
There are most definitely conspiracies going on in this world, people who believe that the massive CIA spends it's times helping kittens down from trees and old ladies cross the road are terribly naive, I don't think also that anyone with any ability to use the intelligence God has bestowed upon them in the ways intended actually believes the official 9/11 story, however a of the time people gravitate to conspiracy theories because they supply emotional comfort by absolving the group or groups people identify with of responsibility- for instance some people will claim that all was grand within Irish Catholicism until Freemasons with their "Liberal Agenda" and the media turning the nation apostate when they should really be asking why than did the Freemasons and the media have such an easy job of it? Similarly the OP seems to believe that there are no contradictions in Neo-Liberalism and it's attendent nihilistic anarchy in most spheres and that the only possible reason people would be complaining about must "Russian influence" which is hilarous because the Russian Federation is essentially defensive and generally favours stability unlike certain other states I could mention.

The below is my personal favourite nutty conspiracy theory- the IDF used to inform it's soldiers that the only reason Hezbollah were opposed to Zionist colonialism was because of the Vatican who's tools they are:

Vatican teaching Hezbollah how to kill Jews, says pamphlet for IDF troops

Pro-Settler Rabbi Tells IDF Troops Vatican and Hezbollah Conspire to Exterminate Jews - Tikun Olam תיקון עולם
 

Eire1976

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
13,890
There are most definitely conspiracies going on in this world, people who believe that the massive CIA spends it's times helping kittens down from trees and old ladies cross the road are terribly naive, I don't think also that anyone with any ability to use the intelligence God has bestowed upon them in the ways intended actually believes the official 9/11 story, however a of the time people gravitate to conspiracy theories because they supply emotional comfort by absolving the group or groups people identify with of responsibility- for instance some people will claim that all was grand within Irish Catholicism until Freemasons with their "Liberal Agenda" and the media turning the nation apostate when they should really be asking why than did the Freemasons and the media have such an easy job of it? Similarly the OP seems to believe that there are no contradictions in Neo-Liberalism and it's attendent nihilistic anarchy in most spheres and that the only possible reason people would be complaining about must "Russian influence" which is hilarous because the Russian Federation is essentially defensive and generally favours stability unlike certain other states I could mention.

The below is my personal favourite nutty conspiracy theory- the IDF used to inform it's soldiers that the only reason Hezbollah were opposed to Zionist colonialism was because of the Vatican who's tools they are:

Vatican teaching Hezbollah how to kill Jews, says pamphlet for IDF troops

Pro-Settler Rabbi Tells IDF Troops Vatican and Hezbollah Conspire to Exterminate Jews - Tikun Olam תיקון עולם
What gives rise is the lack of questioning of blatant misdeeds.
 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,727
Last edited:
Last edited:
So the articles that I read, stating that the CIA admitted that they had "people" in nearly all major US publications is a hoax and they were all good lads allowing journalists to write the truth?
I read the wiki entry you quoted. I actually quoted from that. If you have other articles, please feel free to share.

I note too this was traditionally a theme of socialist propaganda, e.g. The Journalist in our Day (an article defending the claim that the East German press was far freer than the West German press etc.)

And then this
So an 8 year old Guardia article about how the US military is developing "sock-puppet" software that will let it secretly manipulate social media sites by using fake online personas to influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda.

Anything more on this story? Sure, it's an RT story. Lots of innuendo and sensation, light on hard facts. E.g.

Anyway, again, the difference here again is, anything we may conceivably be talking about here is the west taking counter-measures.

We as yet remain a very long way from having a state controlled media, such as Russia has, and there are other totalitarian states who have a state media, too.
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top Bottom