• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please contact us.

Ryanair crisis

Nebuchadnezzar

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
10,780
The industrial relations situation within Ryanair is going from bad to worse. The pilots strikes in Dublin were initially dismissed as minor and irrelevant by the management and the company’s media champions when judged against the scale of their overall operation. However, those dismissals are proving rather ill judged given that Ryanair is now facing industrial action from pilots and cabin crew in Ireland, Belgium, Portugal, Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden, Italy and Spain. Now, the UK pilots union BALPA has announced a Failure to Agree, the formal first step towards strike action.

Ryanair is in a particularly weak position given that there is a major global shortage of pilots and also given that one of the key issues, the use of large scale use of supposed ‘contractors’ rather than employees is one that is also coming under increasing scrutiny by various national governments and tax authorities.

Ryanair’s response still seems to be based on playing hardball....threatening job loses and relocation of aircraft to Poland. Playing tough when your hand is weak is a high risk strategy.....I suspect that many pilots don’t treat such threats as credible and even if Ryanair did carry it out the pilots have plenty of other options elsewhere. IMO Michael O’Leary and various champions of the free market need to realise that their negotiating style needs to be radically different when bargaining from a weak position.

What should Ryanair’s next move be?

Cave in the the unions demands?

Major relocation to elsewhere?

‘Promote’ O’Leary to Chairman?
 


Spanner Island

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
23,974
The industrial relations situation within Ryanair is going from bad to worse. The pilots strikes in Dublin were initially dismissed as minor and irrelevant by the management and the company’s media champions when judged against the scale of their overall operation. However, those dismissals are proving rather ill judged given that Ryanair is now facing industrial action from pilots and cabin crew in Ireland, Belgium, Portugal, Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden, Italy and Spain. Now, the UK pilots union BALPA has announced a Failure to Agree, the formal first step towards strike action.

Ryanair is in a particularly weak position given that there is a major global shortage of pilots and also given that one of the key issues, the use of large scale use of supposed ‘contractors’ rather than employees is one that is also coming under increasing scrutiny by various national governments and tax authorities.

Ryanair’s response still seems to be based on playing hardball....threatening job loses and relocation of aircraft to Poland. Playing tough when your hand is weak is a high risk strategy.....I suspect that many pilots don’t treat such threats as credible and even if Ryanair did carry it out the pilots have plenty of other options elsewhere. IMO Michael O’Leary and various champions of the free market need to realise that their negotiating style needs to be radically different when bargaining from a weak position.

What should Ryanair’s next move be?

Cave in the the unions demands?

Major relocation to elsewhere?

‘Promote’ O’Leary to Chairman?
All they need is for unions around Europe to co-ordinate strikes and they'll be well and truly f***ed.

Not sure what they should do though... the way it's going is a bit like the London riots a few years back... a small enough event allowed to escalate due to complacency and/or stupidity and/or arrogance in the case of Ryanair management...
 

Levellers

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
13,848
A Ryanair cabin steward used to live next door to me and she absolutely hated working for them. She was always looking for another job.
 

gerhard dengler

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 3, 2011
Messages
46,739
It is a difficult one for Ryanair as you say there is a worldwide shortage of airline pilots.

From reading the media reports it seems that for years there were practically no industrial relations between staff and company management. It is difficult to know which side of the demarcation was more intransigent. I suspect that it was the management but I can't be certain of this.

Even in his personal obituary to his mentor, O'leary said that Tony Ryan had told him years later that in his (Ryan's) opinion, O'Leary had at times gone too far and had only managed to antagonise the workforce more.

Years and years of pent up frustration at this intransigence appears to be a large factor in this current dispute.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
10,780
It is a difficult one for Ryanair as you say there is a worldwide shortage of airline pilots.

From reading the media reports it seems that for years there were practically no industrial relations between staff and company management. It is difficult to know which side of the demarcation was more intransigent. I suspect that it was the management but I can't be certain of this.

Even in his personal obituary to his mentor, O'leary said that Tony Ryan had told him years later that in his (Ryan's) opinion, O'Leary had at times gone too far and had only managed to antagonise the workforce more.

Years and years of pent up frustration at this intransigence appears to be a large factor in this current dispute.
It seems to me that the discontent and those willingness to take action has now reached a critical mass. Ryanair’s bluff is being called and even if it’s not a bluff many of the workers are saying so what?....we’ve nothing to lose here.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
10,780
Some interesting letters from the management......initially saying strikers would not be punished or victimised, then saying that it would affect their promotion prospects and then later again saying it would not.







 
D

Deleted member 17573

The key issue at this moment in time, leaving aside the rights and wrongs of some of Ryanair's employment practices, is the global pilot shortage. Ryanair may be hoping to ride it out but that's not going to happen, so they're going to have to compete with other European airlines in terms of pay and conditions.

This would have to include permanent, conventional employment and an end to the contract nonsense, plus getting rid of things like paying for uniforms, paying for food and drink while flying, a less hostile and combative attitude from senior management - and in the view of many pilots there's worse than O'Leary in the upper ranks of Ryanair - and various other issues that rankle with pilots. So, pay them, pay for holidays and sick leave, have a reasonable pension fund and give some security in regard to base assignment, and then talk to the pilots - apart from the pay issue they might find that it wouldn't cost much to address their concerns. And if they do this they will attract pilots, including pilots who left them to work in the Middle East and Asia.

In short, act like a normal employer!
 

toconn

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
3,201
Which ever way it goes there needs to be a change of management at the top in Ryanair . MOL has had his day and despite great success his management style is no longer fit for purpose .
I’m a frequent user of Ryanair over the years due mainly to the fact their routes suit and frankly they deliver what’s on the tin including mostly up to recently punctuality . That along with other aspects seems to be suffering due to crew shortages caused by MOL and fellow directors policies .
I’d say they , Ryanair, are in a precarious position if settlements aren’t agreed
 

wombat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
32,642
The key issue at this moment in time, leaving aside the rights and wrongs of some of Ryanair's employment practices, is the global pilot shortage. Ryanair may be hoping to ride it out but that's not going to happen, so they're going to have to compete with other European airlines in terms of pay and conditions.
How much of the pilot shortage is due to Ryanair? How many of their pilots want to switch to long haul routes or move to Asia? It seems to me that the European pilots would like Ryanair to operate like the old European airlines which will destroy their model. I'm not a frequent flyer but any damage to Ryanair's model of cheap fares based on quick turnaround will have a major impact on those who work around Europe.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
10,780
How much of the pilot shortage is due to Ryanair? How many of their pilots want to switch to long haul routes or move to Asia? It seems to me that the European pilots would like Ryanair to operate like the old European airlines which will destroy their model. I'm not a frequent flyer but any damage to Ryanair's model of cheap fares based on quick turnaround will have a major impact on those who work around Europe.
Why will it destroy their model? Giving pilots employee status? Giving them some stability and choice over their base location? These things are completely irrelevant to the turnaround time between flights.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
10,780
@Wombat.....I know you’re a keen investor with an eye for value. Would you be tempted by Ryanair shares at today’s price?
 

wombat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
32,642
@Wombat.....I know you’re a keen investor with an eye for value. Would you be tempted by Ryanair shares at today’s price?
I'd be tempted but I don't really know enough about what's going on to gamble money.
 
D

Deleted member 17573

How much of the pilot shortage is due to Ryanair? How many of their pilots want to switch to long haul routes or move to Asia? It seems to me that the European pilots would like Ryanair to operate like the old European airlines which will destroy their model. I'm not a frequent flyer but any damage to Ryanair's model of cheap fares based on quick turnaround will have a major impact on those who work around Europe.
Ryanair has certain attractions, the rosters being one example. Generally 5 days on, 4 days off and home almost every night. Not everybody wants long-haul, and flying long-haul out of Asia or the M.E., with flights of up to 16 hours duration, is a very different prospect to the traditional Europe-U.S. routes - tough on the body and tough on family life. And very few pilots are still hankering for the traditional model, they know those days are long gone.
 
D

Deleted member 17573

Why will it destroy their model? Giving pilots employee status? Giving them some stability and choice over their base location? These things are completely irrelevant to the turnaround time between flights.
From what I hear the turnaround time is not a major issue with pilots. It is actually much tougher on the cabin crew.
 

Orbit v2

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
11,661
Ryanair has certain attractions, the rosters being one example. Generally 5 days on, 4 days off and home almost every night. Not everybody wants long-haul, and flying long-haul out of Asia or the M.E., with flights of up to 16 hours duration, is a very different prospect to the traditional Europe-U.S. routes - tough on the body and tough on family life. And very few pilots are still hankering for the traditional model, they know those days are long gone.
so long as home really is home, and not Warsaw or some other place, they transfer you to.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
10,780
Ryanair has certain attractions, the rosters being one example. Generally 5 days on, 4 days off and home almost every night. Not everybody wants long-haul, and flying long-haul out of Asia or the M.E., with flights of up to 16 hours duration, is a very different prospect to the traditional Europe-U.S. routes - tough on the body and tough on family life. And very few pilots are still hankering for the traditional model, they know those days are long gone.
....rosters stability is good but I think base stability is a bigger issue for family life. Ryanair have one of the lowest proportion of female pilots.....AFAIR only 3% of their pilots are women.
 
D

Deleted member 17573

so long as home really is home, and not Warsaw or some other place, they transfer you to.
Sure, but that's the nature of the business. You need to be willing to live away from your home country, and I think that transfers back to a preferred location are facilitated where possible. Not sure if there is a formalized process, but the facility exists.
 
D

Deleted member 17573

....rosters stability is good but I think base stability is a bigger issue for family life. Ryanair have one of the lowest proportion of female pilots.....AFAIR only 3% of their pilots are women.
Is base stability a significant issue? Most guys seem to hold onto their assigned bases long-term, unless there is a base closure, but perhaps there needs to be a better structure around it.
 

Orbit v2

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
11,661
Sure, but that's the nature of the business. You need to be willing to live away from your home country, and I think that transfers back to a preferred location are facilitated where possible. Not sure if there is a formalized process, but the facility exists.
That might be okay if you accept the job on the basis of working from some foreign base from the get go, but is it not part of what they are complaining about, that management use threats of base transfer to keep the staff in line?
 

Spanner Island

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
23,974
Ryanair has certain attractions, the rosters being one example. Generally 5 days on, 4 days off and home almost every night. Not everybody wants long-haul, and flying long-haul out of Asia or the M.E., with flights of up to 16 hours duration, is a very different prospect to the traditional Europe-U.S. routes - tough on the body and tough on family life. And very few pilots are still hankering for the traditional model, they know those days are long gone.
I saw a BA pilot interviewed recently enough... about the old days...

Used to take 3 weeks to get to Oz and back... multi night layovers in 5 star hotels... out and back...

It ain't like it used to be... anywhere...
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top