Sam Smyth on FG

NotDevsSon

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Darren Mac an Phríora said:
Edo said:
THE mood among Fine Gael lifers is somewhere between muffled desperation and quiet resignation.
Another drop in another opinion poll and further speculation about the leadership offers no hope to supporters. And, more ominously, it gives succour to their enemies.
FG members are either extremely thick skinned with Enda Kenny as their leader of they are living in their own little fantasy world where "everything is OK really", or both.
Unlike you who cuts and runs at the first drop of rain. (If you were ever really a FGer at all, which I doubt!)
 


DJP

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Edo said:
Darren Mac an Phríora said:
Edo said:
THE mood among Fine Gael lifers is somewhere between muffled desperation and quiet resignation.
Another drop in another opinion poll and further speculation about the leadership offers no hope to supporters. And, more ominously, it gives succour to their enemies.
FG members are either extremely thick skinned with Enda Kenny as their leader of they are living in their own little fantasy world where "everything is OK really", or both.
Actually I didn't write the above and would appreciate it if you could edit that and demonstrate some competence with the "quote function"! as you would have known if you had read the thread from the beginning.

Yeesh - talk about the need to spin.
Done- let's not get too excited.



NotDevsSon said:
Unlike you who cuts and runs at the first drop of rain.
Come on your problems are not that easy going.
 

KATHY

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Catalpa said:
Enda Kenny is truly a pathetic leader of the Opposition - it's hard to believe that in any other democracy he would last for long.

They really are FF Lite. :oops:

But if they want there is an issue just waoting for some Party to pick up and run with it and that is of course is Immigration.

Even a few subtle hints along the lines 'that maybe something ought to be done' would get FG votes in droves.
For the record FG, under Enda Kenny, were the only Party to include the issue of immigration in their pre-election manifesto. They suggested then that we should appoint a Minister for Immigration Affairs with the sole responsibility of dealing with the many issues surrounding immigration, as opposed to the current situation where it seems the buck is just passed from one department to another.

But then of course it depends very much on where you are coming from on this particular issue.
 

DJP

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You also called for a quota didn't you?
 

KingKane

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Edo said:
jetttxyz said:
The article below is by Sam Smyth in Monday 23rd June's Indo.
One thing has me thinking: the article has a lot of similarities, to the contents, posted on P.ie

Coincidence, are we all thinking alike.....or what?

By Sam Smyth
Monday June 23 2008

THE mood among Fine Gael lifers is somewhere between muffled desperation and quiet resignation.
Another drop in another opinion poll and further speculation about the leadership offers no hope to supporters. And, more ominously, it gives succour to their enemies.
.....................................................................................................................................................................................................
What, the electorate will ask, is Fine Gael for and why is it not currently a realistic contender to lead the next government?
Meh - its a fair point and the Sunday Tribune made the same at the Weekend.

Im a fully paid and active member of FG - but as most know here Im not too precious at defending the Party at all costs - if its a legitimate point ,which the above is, then fair enough and the party should be listening.

For a start - Regardless of the opinion polls - all the parties who supported Lisbon will need to do a serious degree of hard thinking this summer and none of them should take any comfort from appearing to have dodged a bullet or not. The Lisbon referendum, like all referendums where the contents were not something as clearcut as Divorce or abortion or over other deeply personal moral issue - was a "state of the nation" poll - which means in our case , the economic conditions and how much faith the electorate has in the Dail to deal with this and their management of public services - and the answer was a resounding 2 fingers - Europe, the EU and the actual contents of the Lisbon treaty were actually of little import at the end of the day -much more important was sending a message to the Dail over how they were feeling about the running of the country.

Whither Fine Gael?

Well - this moment was coming and recent events have probably fast forwarded it big time - given the local and Euro elections next year - its Fine Gaels "Shite or get off the pot" moment. The problem is the message , not the personnel, at the moment. Until FG decide what that message is actually composed of, give all the spinners and pollsters their P45 in Hq - decide to provide opposition with a degree of consistency in line with the "message" as opposed to blaming and shouting at the government for everything from Irelands failure to qualify for Euro 2008 to the crap weather we had today, Until that message is decided in line and in agreement with the full membership so everybody is playing off the same hymnsheet, until the membership itself wakes up to the fact that its 2008 not 1958 we are living in now and decides to pull back the curtains and let a little new blood, new ideas and a more diverse membership in the door that might actually reflect the diverse and complex society we live in today - Then the future is bleak - Fine Gael's "core vote" (who will vote FG come hell or high water in National elections) is probably closer to 15% than 25% and is dwindling and dying off and becoming more conservative,incestous and exclusive - the party will surely decline into irrelevance in the future , kind of like the Catholic Church which is following the same trajectory - if as appears likely they fail to make Government at the next election.

The Political Landscape is changing - the Lisbon result was a dramatic expression of this - whatever the consequences or not of the result and our relationship with Europe - the biggest deal was that the electorate has shown its power and none of the establishment parties should take their vote for granted. With the economy in interesting times and even when it recovers - there will be no return to the boom days and the orgy of buying off whoever opposed you. The old bonds are perishing between the electorate and the 2 and half party political mainstream - I have a feeling ( and I had a feeling about Lisbon 2 months before the result) that next years local elections are going to be very interesting and both FF , FG and Lab could be in for serious hi-jacking come next June.

The political party or movement that cops this on first and manages to ride this wave could sweep to power - the electorate are looking for 4 things now - they've seen thru the bull - 1) a consistent message and vision and it must be positive - people vote for governments not against them 2) blunt honesty about the circumstances facing us and keep the spin to the minimum - the people have enough3) a willingness to go out and knock on everydoor in the country and listen, listen,listen and 4) outline a plan of clear measurable objectives that do not conflict with the vision and drive that message home again and again ,so much that canvassers will be able to recite it like 2nd class maths tables when they are asked.

Yep Fine Gael are back at that moment again -last years election was a high watermark in the "We're not Fianna Fail" strategy - a strategy that will have to go in the Bin - Yes , we will benefit from the current administrations current discomfort - but unless we have a real imaginative new deal to put in front of the electorate - then we are pissing against the wind - Leadership changes are irrelevant - the whole party and organisation must get out of its comfort zone and banging on about its past and what we did aeons ago and start to take real risks and start to tell the people what we are going do for them in the future and what our vision of the future in 10-15-20 years is and its about telling it on a grassroots,door to door level - nobody apart from the anoraks here ,gives a monkeys about the punch and judy show in Leinster house.

Fortune favours the Brave - Libertas have proved this on Lisbon - Will Fine Gael face up to this moment of destiny or not? - there is an opportunity now - but the door will quickly close if not taken.
It's got to be about the message first and foremost and not the messenger. The focus has to be getting what we would do across to the electorate and less time on thinking about personalities.
 

DJP

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KingKane said:
Edo said:
jetttxyz said:
The article below is by Sam Smyth in Monday 23rd June's Indo.
One thing has me thinking: the article has a lot of similarities, to the contents, posted on P.ie

Coincidence, are we all thinking alike.....or what?

By Sam Smyth
Monday June 23 2008

THE mood among Fine Gael lifers is somewhere between muffled desperation and quiet resignation.
Another drop in another opinion poll and further speculation about the leadership offers no hope to supporters. And, more ominously, it gives succour to their enemies.
.....................................................................................................................................................................................................
What, the electorate will ask, is Fine Gael for and why is it not currently a realistic contender to lead the next government?
Meh - its a fair point and the Sunday Tribune made the same at the Weekend.

Im a fully paid and active member of FG - but as most know here Im not too precious at defending the Party at all costs - if its a legitimate point ,which the above is, then fair enough and the party should be listening.

For a start - Regardless of the opinion polls - all the parties who supported Lisbon will need to do a serious degree of hard thinking this summer and none of them should take any comfort from appearing to have dodged a bullet or not. The Lisbon referendum, like all referendums where the contents were not something as clearcut as Divorce or abortion or over other deeply personal moral issue - was a "state of the nation" poll - which means in our case , the economic conditions and how much faith the electorate has in the Dail to deal with this and their management of public services - and the answer was a resounding 2 fingers - Europe, the EU and the actual contents of the Lisbon treaty were actually of little import at the end of the day -much more important was sending a message to the Dail over how they were feeling about the running of the country.

Whither Fine Gael?

Well - this moment was coming and recent events have probably fast forwarded it big time - given the local and Euro elections next year - its Fine Gaels "Shite or get off the pot" moment. The problem is the message , not the personnel, at the moment. Until FG decide what that message is actually composed of, give all the spinners and pollsters their P45 in Hq - decide to provide opposition with a degree of consistency in line with the "message" as opposed to blaming and shouting at the government for everything from Irelands failure to qualify for Euro 2008 to the crap weather we had today, Until that message is decided in line and in agreement with the full membership so everybody is playing off the same hymnsheet, until the membership itself wakes up to the fact that its 2008 not 1958 we are living in now and decides to pull back the curtains and let a little new blood, new ideas and a more diverse membership in the door that might actually reflect the diverse and complex society we live in today - Then the future is bleak - Fine Gael's "core vote" (who will vote FG come hell or high water in National elections) is probably closer to 15% than 25% and is dwindling and dying off and becoming more conservative,incestous and exclusive - the party will surely decline into irrelevance in the future , kind of like the Catholic Church which is following the same trajectory - if as appears likely they fail to make Government at the next election.

The Political Landscape is changing - the Lisbon result was a dramatic expression of this - whatever the consequences or not of the result and our relationship with Europe - the biggest deal was that the electorate has shown its power and none of the establishment parties should take their vote for granted. With the economy in interesting times and even when it recovers - there will be no return to the boom days and the orgy of buying off whoever opposed you. The old bonds are perishing between the electorate and the 2 and half party political mainstream - I have a feeling ( and I had a feeling about Lisbon 2 months before the result) that next years local elections are going to be very interesting and both FF , FG and Lab could be in for serious hi-jacking come next June.

The political party or movement that cops this on first and manages to ride this wave could sweep to power - the electorate are looking for 4 things now - they've seen thru the bull - 1) a consistent message and vision and it must be positive - people vote for governments not against them 2) blunt honesty about the circumstances facing us and keep the spin to the minimum - the people have enough3) a willingness to go out and knock on everydoor in the country and listen, listen,listen and 4) outline a plan of clear measurable objectives that do not conflict with the vision and drive that message home again and again ,so much that canvassers will be able to recite it like 2nd class maths tables when they are asked.

Yep Fine Gael are back at that moment again -last years election was a high watermark in the "We're not Fianna Fail" strategy - a strategy that will have to go in the Bin - Yes , we will benefit from the current administrations current discomfort - but unless we have a real imaginative new deal to put in front of the electorate - then we are pissing against the wind - Leadership changes are irrelevant - the whole party and organisation must get out of its comfort zone and banging on about its past and what we did aeons ago and start to take real risks and start to tell the people what we are going do for them in the future and what our vision of the future in 10-15-20 years is and its about telling it on a grassroots,door to door level - nobody apart from the anoraks here ,gives a monkeys about the punch and judy show in Leinster house.

Fortune favours the Brave - Libertas have proved this on Lisbon - Will Fine Gael face up to this moment of destiny or not? - there is an opportunity now - but the door will quickly close if not taken.
It's got to be about the message first and foremost and not the messenger. The focus has to be getting what we would do across to the electorate and less time on thinking about personalities.
As you are aware though we are living in a media age and any potential Taoiseach has to demonstrate that he or she is an all round effective media performer. OK Bertie was an exception to the rule but he could be good when he had to be. Enda generally isn't. The people won't elect him as Taoiseach.
 

DJP

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KingKane said:
Really, Darren? Tell us again about the great media performer that Albert was or that Cowen is?
I don't remember Albert well as I was too young and not interested in politics at the time but from news video archives he seemed fairly good.

Brian Cowen is a heavyweight media performer.

Enda comes across as wooden most of the time on television- at best.
 

KingKane

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Darren Mac an Phríora said:
KingKane said:
Really, Darren? Tell us again about the great media performer that Albert was or that Cowen is?
I don't remember Albert well as I was too young and not interested in politics at the time but from news video archives he seemed fairly good.

Brian Cowen is a heavyweight media performer.

Enda comes across as wooden most of the time on television- at best.
Speaking for myself, I'd kick Cowen over the place if it was a question purely of media performance. And I'd rate myself as no more than middlingly.
 

DJP

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KingKane said:
Darren Mac an Phríora said:
KingKane said:
Really, Darren? Tell us again about the great media performer that Albert was or that Cowen is?
I don't remember Albert well as I was too young and not interested in politics at the time but from news video archives he seemed fairly good.

Brian Cowen is a heavyweight media performer.

Enda comes across as wooden most of the time on television- at best.
Speaking for myself, I'd kick Cowen over the place if it was a question purely of media performance. And I'd rate myself as no more than middlingly.
Well I disagree but there is no point in getting bogged down in this argument.

You would probably do better than Enda Kenny against him. Most FG members in the Dáil would anyway.
 

Barbarian

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KingKane said:
Speaking for myself, I'd kick Cowen over the place if it was a question purely of media performance.
:shock:
Could we even have a semblance of objectivity please
 

DJP

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Barbarian said:
KingKane said:
Speaking for myself, I'd kick Cowen over the place if it was a question purely of media performance.
:shock:
Could we even have a semblance of objectivity please
I'm surprised than anyone in any party would make that claim.
 

Respvblica

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For all those who agnoise on whether FG is providing proper opposition and criticsie them for not critising FF enough I say this:

JOIN FG and make it happen! Then vote Kenny out or whatever you think needs to be done.

Democracy in Ireland needs change.

Otherwise be impotent and pathetic all you like, but do the rest of us of favour and shut up. Or go to England or Europe where you can enjoy post-industrial working-class capital class conflicts that we were thankfully spared! And take the media with you!
 

jetttxyz

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Respvblica said:
For all those who agnoise on whether FG is providing proper opposition and criticsie them for not critising FF enough I say this:

JOIN FG and make it happen! Then vote Kenny out or whatever you think needs to be done.

Democracy in Ireland needs change.

Otherwise be impotent and pathetic all you like, but do the rest of us of favour and shut up. Or go to England or Europe where you can enjoy post-industrial working-class capital class conflicts that we were thankfully spared! And take the media with you!
FG membership increased to levels that would embarass Everest (or was it Kilimanjaro ;)....according to FG.
FG made a Lazarus-like comeback in the 2007 GEs.
It is accepted that FG had a marvellous result in the Euro elections.
It is agreed that FG had a great result in the last CC elections.
FG conducted the better 'Yes to Lisbon' campaign.

.......and, yet, there are serious doubts on the future of FG from within and without.

'Go to England or Europe' etc calls solve nothing for FG.....and maybe, there lies the problem.
 

DJP

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jetttxyz said:
.......and, yet, there are serious doubts on the future of FG from within and without.
Their problems lie with their leader. I don't know every member on their front bench but most of them seem to be great spokespeople. Their problem is that Enda Kenny is their leader.
 

KingKane

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Darren Mac an Phríora said:
jetttxyz said:
.......and, yet, there are serious doubts on the future of FG from within and without.
Their problems lie with their leader. I don't know every member on their front bench but most of them seem to be great spokespeople. Their problem is that Enda Kenny is their leader.
So speaks the person who was a member of all of one year and left because the party didn't follow sufficiently his own personal line on one specific issue.
 

DJP

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KingKane said:
Darren Mac an Phríora said:
jetttxyz said:
.......and, yet, there are serious doubts on the future of FG from within and without.
Their problems lie with their leader. I don't know every member on their front bench but most of them seem to be great spokespeople. Their problem is that Enda Kenny is their leader.
So speaks the person who was a member of all of one year and left because the party didn't follow sufficiently his own personal line on one specific issue.
No I didn't.

I left because I identify with and respect Brian Cowen more than Enda Kenny. I don't disrespect Enda Kenny as I have said before but he is a weak and ineffective leader overall.
 

Respvblica

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jetttxyz said:
Respvblica said:
For all those who agnoise on whether FG is providing proper opposition and criticsie them for not critising FF enough I say this:

JOIN FG and make it happen! Then vote Kenny out or whatever you think needs to be done.

Democracy in Ireland needs change.

Otherwise be impotent and pathetic all you like, but do the rest of us of favour and shut up. Or go to England or Europe where you can enjoy post-industrial working-class capital class conflicts that we were thankfully spared! And take the media with you!
FG membership increased to levels that would embarass Everest (or was it Kilimanjaro ;)....according to FG.
FG made a Lazarus-like comeback in the 2007 GEs.
It is accepted that FG had a marvellous result in the Euro elections.
It is agreed that FG had a great result in the last CC elections.
FG conducted the better 'Yes to Lisbon' campaign.

.......and, yet, there are serious doubts on the future of FG from within and without.

'Go to England or Europe' etc calls solve nothing for FG.....and maybe, there lies the problem.


Forgive me - I guess I struck out, being a bit frustrated at the article. There is a problem, down the country regarding nepotism etc in FG just as there is in FF, but like in Garretts day it was quite easy to get into the party, especially in cities and change it to change Ireland.
Thats what we need
And the more poeople that join, the less power the dynastys have. Dont get me wrong about all the dynasties-its great to have such loyalty, but FG needs to be about mobilsing all the citizenry as equals, not about civil wars or old friends at the bar.
FGs aim is not to make ireland left or right, but to ensure that the institutions are efficient, small and transparent. The irish people make ireland work. not the elites! Dont you get it. They are the parasites, The less of them the better, whatever their colour.
It is about taken power from the political class, and giving it as much as possible to the people.
Now I know its not FGs stated policy, but no other party comes close to fulfilling that dream. We dont beleieve in a great all powerfull fatherfigure Leader. FG is about you and me getting things done! Thats a republic.
 

The Earl of Desmond

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The fact remains that if this gov last a full term it will be 30 years since FG won an election in Nov 82.

While it's nice and all I don't agree that having more councillors or MEPs or running better referendum campaigns make any difference or should be accepted as a good consolation.

Enda Kenny isn't the problem. Garret FitzGerald has less interpersonal skills than Enda Kenny but he was intelligant to understand that he needed to employ people to do the things he couldn't - like sort out head office and put in place proper media and PR etc. That left Garret to tour the country and meet people - people who respected him as being honest and decent even if they could barely understand what on earth he was pratling on about - and having met him all the spin Dr had to do then was get through the message that FG will do this and that when back in office.

FG head office is now the same as it was in Garret's day despite 5 leaders since then. It is completely out of date not to mention a bit of a kip and very dirty.

If the party had a modern functioning head office it might filter into people's attitudes. Also get rid of whoever does FG media and PR cos it's not working. If it was then the party wouldn't be losing support and people's wouldn't be deluding themselves that when 'real' politics are restored we'll get a bounce.

Why is it so difficult for FG heads to believe that FG has to get people to vote FOR the party not just against FF. If they want to vote against FF they can pick Labour or PD or Green or Sinn Fein.

There is no reason for anyone to vote for FG. The policy wonks and political nerds who live in a Leinster Hse bubble need to get a grasp of reality.

FG have policies on everything but ask anyone on the street to name any of them and they haven't a clue. That's a marketing/PR failure. As is letting the likes of Varadkar or Creighton lose on the airwaves without some media training to tone down the sneer and patronising voice.

What happened to all these review and reports which were carried out after each time FG lost an election - why do the party leadership ask top ranking professionals - who know what they are talking about - and then ignore what they say and wonder why at the next election FG loses again. Coming within 20 seats or 8 seats or 4 seats is the same - another term of opposition.

The fact that media types like Sam S prefer to write an article on FG in the midst of the wheels coming off the economy tells you alot at how bad FG is at managing its relationship with the media - are there no FG reps who build up relationships with people like Sam S or who are able to forestall such useless articles.

Where is the FG Alistair Campbell.
 


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