Scandal of New Children's Hospital Spending overrun - will Harris resign? Of course not

Baron von Biffo

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It would make for an interesting case in the courts. If the constitution can override a specific exemption allowed to the Minister for Finance under the term 'common good' or whether the exemption holds over the specific protections for property anywhere mentioned in the constitution.

It would be a case well taken in order to get a tighter definition and to lend precedence to the term 'common good'.
Such a case would only come about if a government proposed to seize the schools or hospitals and the church(es) sought to invoke Art. 44 to block it. Since the government didn't attempt any such manoeuvre when the church was mired in scandal it's very unlikely that it ever will.

The government would surely be defeated because everything in Art 44 would be against it.
 


Baron von Biffo

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Go ahead and try it if you have the cash to waste.
It's not something where an ordinary citizen would have locus standi.

Unless and until a government sought to expropriate the church(es) there's nothing for the courts to decide and if the government did make such an attempt it would be for the church(es) to oppose it.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
That's why the issue of unpaid redress bills should be linked to the case. How can it be outside the common good for the government to pay bills for private organisations using public money and leave the bill unpresented to those orders?
 

SPN

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Except vote grabbing politicians will never object to exceeding the health operational spend. Featherbedding is a mutual interest.
They cannot object to funding the operational spend because that would mean dead bodies all over the gaff.

But what they haven't been doing, and should be doing, is sacking the mutherfcvkers who are responsible for these here overruns.

That's the new era that Varadkar was supposed to usher in.

But he bottled it.
 

SPN

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That's why the issue of unpaid redress bills should be linked to the case. How can it be outside the common good for the government to pay bills for private organisations using public money and leave the bill unpresented to those orders?
Opus Dei keep a very tight control on the Permanent Government.

That's how they keep control of everything else
 

Patslatt1

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The one thing I'll give the politicians credit for is not having called for token cost savings. It would have been easy to demand that and could have resulted in great damage to the project. At least, at this point, we still can expect a top quality result.
THE CHILDREN!
A PR strategy focusing on how wonderful and fantastic the new hospital will be for the children is designed to distract from the fact that taxpayers are being screwed in this fiasco.Hillary Clinton always tried to use the word children in her advocacy for increased spending on social programmes.
 

Orbit v2

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THE CHILDREN!
A PR strategy focusing on how wonderful and fantastic the new hospital will be for the children is designed to distract from the fact that taxpayers are being screwed in this fiasco.Hillary Clinton always tried to use the word children in her advocacy for increased spending on social programmes.
Though I remember Hilary Clinton once saying how she would be a president for women and children. I thought - great way to potentially annoy the other 50% of the electorate!

Also, the hospital will be wonderful and fantastic. In the grand scheme of things, the overrun when averaged over the lifetime of the hospital, it won't be that bad. Not, that that's to excuse it mind. But, when you look at the 30 odd billion we spend on health every fckin year, with nothing permanent to show for it, you have to put it in perspective.
 

SPN

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Though I remember Hilary Clinton once saying how she would be a president for women and children.
Dead women and children (in Iran, Russia, Syria, Libya, Yemen and Palestine).

Thankfully she never got the chance..


In the grand scheme of things, the overrun when averaged over the lifetime of the hospital, it won't be that bad. Not, that that's to excuse it mind.
There was no "overrun".

There was a massive underestimation of the cost by the Department of Health and DPER.



But, when you look at the 30 odd billion we spend on health every fckin year, with nothing permanent to show for it, you have to put it in perspective.
We will spend about €17 Billion this year, and that includes a goodly chunk of capital spending which will be permanent.
 

Baron von Biffo

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Though I remember Hilary Clinton once saying how she would be a president for women and children. I thought - great way to potentially annoy the other 50% of the electorate!

Also, the hospital will be wonderful and fantastic. In the grand scheme of things, the overrun when averaged over the lifetime of the hospital, it won't be that bad. Not, that that's to excuse it mind. But, when you look at the 30 odd billion we spend on health every fckin year, with nothing permanent to show for it, you have to put it in perspective.
At least Robinson had the wit to keep quiet about only being President for Mna na hÉireann until after we'd elected her.
 

Patslatt1

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There are a few areas where the 'common good' proviso is glaringly applicable. One of them being that the state should use this provision to take control of schools and hospitals where the brick and mortar is owned by increasingly decrepit religious orders.

The Common Good not being served at all by awaiting a time when such properties in the state are once again under the control of foreign absentee landlords in the guise of trusts or even offshore trusts.
You're agaiast foreign investment in property. The investment is put to good use to the extent planning permissions aren't hobbled by NIMBY home owners and their councillors.When foreign investors buy properties, the sellers can reinvest the sales proceeds in other properties and businesses. The problem to be tackled is the selfish NIMBYISM disease.
 

Patslatt1

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They cannot object to funding the operational spend because that would mean dead bodies all over the gaff.

But what they haven't been doing, and should be doing, is sacking the mutherfcvkers who are responsible for these here overruns.

That's the new era that Varadkar was supposed to usher in.

But he bottled it.
The consolidation of Nenagh and Ennis hospital services in acute care into Limerick hospital was very cost effective but Limerick got a far smaller budget than Dublin hospitals serving similar populations. Are acute care services of other hospitals being consolidated?
 

wombat

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Limerick got a far smaller budget than Dublin hospitals serving similar populations.
Limerick's population is not comparable with Dublin's and some of the Dublin hospitals like Beaumont are national centres for specialist treatment such as brain operations.
 

Massey

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The consolidation of Nenagh and Ennis hospital services in acute care into Limerick hospital was very cost effective but Limerick got a far smaller budget than Dublin hospitals serving similar populations. Are acute care services of other hospitals being consolidated?
Sorry Pat, but reconfiguration does not save money, it actually costs more and can lead to poorer outcomes, but on the positive side, less on- call for consultants.
 

ruman

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This wasn't an overspend.

This was an under-estimation.

The number crunchers underestimated the cost of the project, and the suits overseeing the number crunchers were asleep at the wheel.

Other than that, I agree 100% with your point.

We keep having cost over-runs, but the service keeps getting worse.

And it's the same suits overseeing this.
Correct , underestimation was essential in order to ensure that an unsuitable site was chosen. Growing the power base of management and senior medical staff is the main purpose of the new hospital.

Why else would you spend the most amount of money in the world ever and end up with a 2nd rate hospital.
 

ruman

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THE CHILDREN!
A PR strategy focusing on how wonderful and fantastic the new hospital will be for the children is designed to distract from the fact that taxpayers are being screwed in this fiasco.Hillary Clinton always tried to use the word children in her advocacy for increased spending on social programmes.
[/QUOTE

Its not for the children, its a 2nd rate hospital. Its to grow the power base of management and senior medics at the existing hospital.
 

Patslatt1

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Limerick's population is not comparable with Dublin's and some of the Dublin hospitals like Beaumont are national centres for specialist treatment such as brain operations.
Limerick Hospital serves Clare, South Tipperary and North Kerry, not just Limerick and has far less funding per patient than similar hospitals in Dublin.
 

Patslatt1

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Correct , underestimation was essential in order to ensure that an unsuitable site was chosen. Growing the power base of management and senior medical staff is the main purpose of the new hospital.

Why else would you spend the most amount of money in the world ever and end up with a 2nd rate hospital.
STUPID TAXPAYERS
It's not as if the doctors and top bureaucrats were paying for the hospital out of their own pockets which would make them spend carefully. Sure 'tis only stupid taxpayers' money!
 

Patslatt1

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Sorry Pat, but reconfiguration does not save money, it actually costs more and can lead to poorer outcomes, but on the positive side, less on- call for consultants.
Consolidation of expensive medical treatments can save huge sums on equipment, training and with sharply increased turnover per consultant. The centres of excellence in cancer are the best example.
 

Watcher2

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Though I remember Hilary Clinton once saying how she would be a president for women and children. I thought - great way to potentially annoy the other 50% of the electorate!

Also, the hospital will be wonderful and fantastic. In the grand scheme of things, the overrun when averaged over the lifetime of the hospital, it won't be that bad. Not, that that's to excuse it mind. But, when you look at the 30 odd billion we spend on health every fckin year, with nothing permanent to show for it, you have to put it in perspective.
We spend nowhere near that. Take a third off your figure and you get total spending which includes cash payments "out of pocket" - the patients pocket, not his/her taxes and health insurance payments. In 2016, government spending was half of your figure.
Ireland spends €20 billion per year on healthcare, here's where the money goes
 


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