Scandal of New Children's Hospital Spending overrun - will Harris resign? Of course not

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,845
You've got your head in the sand. Otherwise, please explain why the project executive decided to put the project to tender when the design was nowhere near complete? Why would they do that? Why also would the government not have a review process in place at particular milestones of the project, such as the point when it went out to tender? Proper oversight would demand this.
DPER are the ultimate providers of oversight when it comes to public procurement.

The responses of DPER at the Oireachtas Committee are very clear.

I suggest you watch the video rather than just reading the transcripts.
 


Patslatt1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
4,093
Harris and Murphy will be backbenchers by September.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that the problems they both have are caused by the Civil Servants.

It doesn't matter who we put in there, the Minister is only a figurehead.
NO HONOUR AMONG MINISTERS
If the honorable UK tradition of ministerial.responsibility was followed over the past generation with Irish ministers resigning on civil service fiascos and scandals,the civil service would be forced to be more responsible and efficient. It would be far less likely to dodge responsibility for big projects like St James by hiding behind interlocking committees. A Sinn Fein TD said she couldn't tell in the public Oireachtas hearing who was responsible for St James cost overruns.
It may not be the ministers' fault when their department screw up. When it isn't, a resignation may not necessarily end a ministerial career. After a period in the back benches, a former minister can be reappointed to a ministry.
Why the Irish ministers refuse to resign when they should may have something to do with a false postcolonial inferiority complex. Such resignations are associated with the auld enemy England.
 
Last edited:

wombat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
33,002
Denis Naughten resigned because he had dinner with the sole remaining bidder for the rural broadband project and that immediately reduced the cost of the project. I couldn't care less if Harris quit but I'm not foolish enough to think that it will solve a single problem.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SPN

Patslatt1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
4,093
I don't buy that. The banks were lending for mortgages long after the crash happened. They definitely weren't lending to developers though. So, the over stretched ones got burned.

Is that what he says?

Of course he could. Contracts would have been his bread and butter, and he was a chartered engineer. There's no way that Wallace would have dealt with contracts of that kind of complexity for his developments.

That's such a strange way of characterising what happened. The QS will only quantify what has been designed but the design was half-baked. That's the real problem.

I can't believe that Wallace (or his supporters) is playing this game. It's the easiest thing in the world to claim this wouldn't have happened if you were in charge. It's baloney. You seem to be very quick to blame the civil servants and I'm sure they deserve some of the blame. The angle I'd like to see studied is the political pressure that caused the whole thing to be rushed, leading to the half baked design, and prematurely committing to a contractor when so much design work was still needed. The impression I get is that the PWC report went easy on naming individuals, because if they went too hard on individuals, they might have spilled the beans on the other stakeholders, like politicians.
Consultants don't bite the hand that feeds them and sure 'tis only stupid taxpayer's money at risk.
 
D

Deleted member 34656

NO HONOUR AMONG MINISTERS
If the honorable UK tradition of ministerial.responsibility was followed over the past generation with Irish ministers resigning on civil service fiascos and scandals,the civil service would be forced to be more responsible and efficient. It would be far less likely to dodge responsibility for big projects like St James by hiding behind interlocking committees. A Sinn Fein TD said she couldn't tell in the public Oireachtas hearing who was responsible for St James cost overruns.
It may not be the ministers' fault when their department screw up. When it isn't, a resignation may not necessarily end a ministerial career. After a period in the back benches, a former minister can be reappointed to a ministry.
Why the Irish ministers refuse to resign when they should may have something to do with a false postcolonial inferiority complex. Such resignations are associated with the auld enemy England.
There were no ministers involved in any aspect of this project. Ever.

Remember that when you are voting the next time.
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,845
There were no ministers involved in any aspect of this project. Ever.

Remember that when you are voting the next time.
It doesn't matter who you vote for, the Opus Dei boys will be waiting to train them how to behave.
 

Orbit v2

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
11,794
I'm not even saying that ministers need to resign over fiascos like this. All I'm saying is that it's totally unacceptable for politicians to shrug their shoulders and disclaim all responsibility. No party or politician who thinks that ministers are mere figureheads can be let near the levers of power. It's an incredibly cynical and nihilistic view of politics and public administration.
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,845
I'm not even saying that ministers need to resign over fiascos like this. All I'm saying is that it's totally unacceptable for politicians to shrug their shoulders and disclaim all responsibility. No party or politician who thinks that ministers are mere figureheads can be let near the levers of power. It's an incredibly cynical and nihilistic view of politics and public administration.
Kevin Cardiff.

Noreen O'Sullivan.

To name but two.

No politician is going to begin to challenge the Permanent Government, because the Permanent Government hold all the power.
 

Patslatt1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
4,093
Kevin Cardiff.

Noreen O'Sullivan.

To name but two.

No politician is going to begin to challenge the Permanent Government, because the Permanent Government hold all the power.
Ministers like to work with civil servants without too much friction but they often have been quite demanding for change in the past.
 

Lumpy Talbot

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
27,793
Twitter
No
Does Mick Wallace lose the right to comment on major developments because someone somewhere found some mud to throw at him personally?

In which case why did we have effective bankrupts as Ministers in recent years- and were they told they can't comment? There's at least one Minister at the moment in the Irish cabinet whose personal business affairs don't withstand much scrutiny.

We've got a little wide-boy on the Council of State, remember, and he wouldn't be the first at that level either. Who would have been jailed in a number of western jurisdictions long ago.

We still have throwbacks like that obvious wide-boy Lowry in Tipperary, convicted last year in court and banned from being a company director.

At least Wallace knows what he's talking about which is more obviously than could be said for the board overseeing this farrago from the off.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SPN

wombat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
33,002
At least Wallace knows what he's talking about which is more obviously than could be said for the board overseeing this farrago from the off.
That's an opinion but as has been pointed out, commercial property development is different from building a state funded hospital. Lowry ran a company which installed refrigeration equipment for Dunnes stores , Michael Fitzmaurice from Roscommon ran a drainage contracting company and the Hely Raes have fingers in multiple contracting pots but would anyone think they have the expertise to advise on the hospital project?
 

Lumpy Talbot

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
27,793
Twitter
No
That's an opinion but as has been pointed out, commercial property development is different from building a state funded hospital. Lowry ran a company which installed refrigeration equipment for Dunnes stores , Michael Fitzmaurice from Roscommon ran a drainage contracting company and the Hely Raes have fingers in multiple contracting pots but would anyone think they have the expertise to advise on the hospital project?
I've seen very little evidence that the people charged with overseeing the project knew what they were doing so Wallace at least with his life experience of costing property projects has a better case for offering an opinion than most.

If that little shyster Lowry can comment on banking governance following his conviction and debarring as a company director last year I think Wallace may be due something of a pass in that he knows more about construction projects of any kind than Michael Lowry knows about banking governance.
 

wombat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
33,002
If that little shyster Lowry can comment on banking governance following his conviction and debarring as a company director last year I think Wallace may be due something of a pass in that he knows more about construction projects of any kind than Michael Lowry knows about banking governance.
They can all comment but the rest of us don't have to take them seriously.
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,845
Here's another example of the Civil Service taking the utter píss out of us.


(waits for the slow learners totry and blame the politicians for this too)
 

Orbit v2

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
11,794
More bolloxology from the PAC. You can argue that there was a conflict of interest (though nobody mentioned it when they were engaged to do this review. Everyone was talking about the possible conflict of interest that they were BAM's auditors). But, you can't argue that they were being paid twice for the same job. It's clearly two different jobs 1) to advise on the awarding of the stage two contract and 2) to study the cost overrun.
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,845
More bolloxology from the PAC. You can argue that there was a conflict of interest (though nobody mentioned it when they were engaged to do this review. Everyone was talking about the possible conflict of interest that they were BAM's auditors). But, you can't argue that they were being paid twice for the same job. It's clearly two different jobs 1) to advise on the awarding of the stage two contract and 2) to study the cost overrun.
That line of codology would not fly in the real world.

If I stood up in front of my boss and didn't have all the numbers, and analysis of the numbers, to hand, I'd be getting a P45.

Varadkar and Harris are remiss in not holding the Civil Servants to account for this complete and utter balls up.
 

wombat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
33,002
The fact remains that the only way to make meaningful cuts to the cost of the project is to reduce the scope of work and nobody is willing to advocate that.
 

Baron von Biffo

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
12,419
Here's another example of the Civil Service taking the utter píss out of us.


(waits for the slow learners totry and blame the politicians for this too)
Being full to the gills with opiates and a tad cranky because they're not working I'd resolved to read but not post for a while but you've forced me to change my mind.

Far from being a case of civil servants taking the piss it's a case of you taking as gospel a mere opinion by some members of the PAC. Opposition members of the PAC. And to make it even more farcical they're objecting to paying for something that was only required because of a furore stirred up by opposition politicians.

Hysterics like that impress the short of thinking and thus garner votes for the politicians in question.

It's called democracy. You want efficiency get a dictator.
 

Baron von Biffo

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
12,419
That line of codology would not fly in the real world.

If I stood up in front of my boss and didn't have all the numbers, and analysis of the numbers, to hand, I'd be getting a P45.

Varadkar and Harris are remiss in not holding the Civil Servants to account for this complete and utter balls up.
Your comparison is invalid.

The private sector equivalent would be if you and your boss agreed there was no need for a review but you were forced into it by a committee dominated by your business rivals.
 
D

Deleted member 34656

More bolloxology from the PAC. You can argue that there was a conflict of interest (though nobody mentioned it when they were engaged to do this review. Everyone was talking about the possible conflict of interest that they were BAM's auditors). But, you can't argue that they were being paid twice for the same job. It's clearly two different jobs 1) to advise on the awarding of the stage two contract and 2) to study the cost overrun.
The stage two contract was awarded in 2017, following cost increase.


November 2018 a review of options was undertaken, following cost increase.

Study of cost overrun was undertaken in 2019, predicting cost increase.
 


New Threads

Most Replies

Top