Scottish Independence: Ireland's Nightmare?

boldfenianman

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In fact I would guess the Scots Pres component of Irelands population is lower than the Irish Catholic descent component in Scotland. Just a guess though.
 


matador

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The United Kingdom would continue to exist even if Scotland left it. It continued to exist after Ireland left it.
I don't think so. The UK was formed by the Union of Scottish, English and then Irish Kingdoms. Wales was a principality of England rather than a kingdom or a nation in its own right. NI has even less status and is/was merely a province.

I'd guess the Union Jack would lose much of it's emotional potency if stripped of the saltire. In fact the St George and St Patrick's crosses would look more like the "rising sun" of the Imperial Japanese Navy!!!

Taking a wild stab in the dark, I'd guess that NI unionists' loyalty lies with QEII more than Alex Salmond!

Also, the notion that an independent Scotland would want anything to do with NI can be dismissed out of hand.
 

matador

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There is a certain element of institutionalised welfare dependency in Scotland which an inpependent government in its early days might struggle to support, but that's no bad thing. I'd rather a short sharp shock than to see Scotland in 20/30 years time still living off handouts from London.

I see how the poles are working their way up the "food chain" from bog-cleaners and fruit pickers a few years ago to plumbers and electricians today (and no doubt Advocates and brain-surgeons tomorrow). It would do our native idlers no harm at all to follow the example of immigrants who have done so much to enrich the country.
 

AberdeenFC

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I could take offence to the reference of lazy Jocks, but won't. I'd expect such comments on the Cross of St George website not this!
 

Kf

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The independence of scotland would be the end of Britain and a not unlikely scenairo is the break up of all its competent parts with a rise in English Nationalism leading to a desire to jettison parts of Britain that they see themselves paying for. The impact on NI could be devasting with the likely end result repartition. The interesting thing for unionism is whether they would try to go it alone, or develop a union with Edinburgh.

A intesresting comparsion is Yugoslavia in the early 90's and I don't know of a single politican, diplomat, journalist or commentator who could have predicted the bloody outcome.
 

matador

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The interesting thing for unionism is whether they would try to go it alone, or develop a union with Edinburgh.
I'm from Edinburgh and my mrs is from Monaghan, so I'm though the north a fair bit. Let me tell you even the mere mention of a union between NI and Scotland sends a shiver down my spine, and that's coming from a SNP voting Scotsman who has a genuine affection for NI.

Let's make this clear, independence or integration with RoI are by far the most likely options for NI post Scottish split.
 

AberdeenFC

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As stated previously, no way should Scotland consider a re-union with NI post break up of UK. (with you Matador on that my friend).

I know of no Scots Nationalist who would support such a move, despite effection for NI & RoI. The cause of a united Ireland on whatever grounds that can be made acceptable to the majority on the whole Island is a more acceptable position for Scots Nationalists - but our sole concern is Scotland's rightful independence and reinstatement as a sovereign nation state again.
 
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AberdeenFC said:
As stated previously, no way should Scotland consider a re-union with NI post break up of UK. (with you Matador on that my friend).

I know of no Scots Nationalist who would support such a move, despite effection for NI & RoI. The cause of a united Ireland on whatever grounds that can be made acceptable to the majority on the whole Island is a more acceptable position for Scots Nationalists - but our sole concern is Scotland's rightful independence and reinstatement as a sovereign nation state again.
Good luck with it.
I see bbc everyweek are trying to show how scots are better off than the English. Thery're getting scared, you can see it. Although they better watch they dont go too far with this angle as it might awaken English nationalism!
 

forest

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I really don't see where this idea of NI and scotland been formed into a union comes from.
Yes the planters were sottish and the British affection and links is towards Scotland but Scotland has no attention of a union I highly dought the the issue has ever been raised
If the UK breaks up I would say NI would declare independence with an referendum soon after if it wish to form a "political union " with Ireland (ie unification)

I have noticed the word border been used more more to describe the area between Scotland and England the areas are been separated in peoples heads.
I saw on ITV news today a story about two families on different sides of the border but only a KM or so from each other, Basically the story foccused on how better and cheaper the education system was in scotland

By the way I know scotland has always had a different legal system
What is the actual difference
 

Thac0man

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matador said:
Let's make this clear, independence or integration with RoI are by far the most likely options for NI post Scottish split.
Of those options I think the former would be more likely. The basis for a possible future northern referendum on Irish unification has already been laid. Unionists could beat nationalists to the punch by using the same agreed mechanism to avoid unification, by voting for independance. Old arguments against independance like 'Northern Ireland is economically dependant/unviable" no longer hold water. Nationalists rather smug crowing about the inevitability of Irish unification via referendum have blinded them to the possible danger. Poisen chalice?
 

AberdeenFC

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Forest:

Scottish Law is historical and pre-dates the union. Like Church, this was one of the Scottish commissioners pre-conditions to the 1707 union act being signed. Hence, its continued existence post union.

The difference from English common law, is that Scottish law is based upon principles, it has a different judicial set up also. Like Sherriff, courts, advocates etc.. Which do not exist in the English system.

English (& Welsh for that matter) law, is based up case law and set precedents. Scottish law is more like the models in Europe, Scandinavia, etc.

E.g. Not Proven is a verdict that can carry in Scottish law - doesn't exist in English.

House purchasing is also different. Closed bids are common in Scotland, not the norm in England etc. etc.

The Scottish Parliament has abolished tuition fees for students and provides more healthcare provision for the elderly etc..
 

boldfenianman

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AberdeenFC said:
I could take offence to the reference of lazy Jocks, but won't. I'd expect such comments on the Cross of St George website not this!
couldnt be bothered then?
 

boldfenianman

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Kf said:
The independence of scotland would be the end of Britain and a not unlikely scenairo is the break up of all its competent parts with a rise in English Nationalism leading to a desire to jettison parts of Britain that they see themselves paying for. The impact on NI could be devasting with the likely end result repartition. The interesting thing for unionism is whether they would try to go it alone, or develop a union with Edinburgh.

A intesresting comparsion is Yugoslavia in the early 90's and I don't know of a single politican, diplomat, journalist or commentator who could have predicted the bloody outcome.
We covered this somewhere else. The protestant population of NI is about 40% Presbyterians. This is the element with scots links. Concentrated in Antrim and N down. This is the only area with even the remotest possibility of a link to Scotland. These scots-presbs comprise about 6% of the population of Ireland. Any attempt at any kind of link whatever to Scotland beyond good neighbourliness would result in immediate civil war in Ireland and severe disorder in the west of Scotland. Dont forget the catholics in this area would have to be shifted.Insanity. Elvis winning the derby on Shergar type of thing.
 

boldfenianman

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AberdeenFC said:
Forest:

Scottish Law is historical and pre-dates the union. Like Church, this was one of the Scottish commissioners pre-conditions to the 1707 union act being signed. Hence, its continued existence post union.

The difference from English common law, is that Scottish law is based upon principles, it has a different judicial set up also. Like Sherriff, courts, advocates etc.. Which do not exist in the English system.

English (& Welsh for that matter) law, is based up case law and set precedents. Scottish law is more like the models in Europe, Scandinavia, etc.

E.g. Not Proven is a verdict that can carry in Scottish law - doesn't exist in English.

House purchasing is also different. Closed bids are common in Scotland, not the norm in England etc. etc.

The Scottish Parliament has abolished tuition fees for students and provides more healthcare provision for the elderly etc..
Off topic a little. Quiz. Which is the only US State to operate a form of Code Napoleon as its legal system?
 

corkman2007

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Louisiana
 

Earnest

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In the unlikely event of Scotland declaring its independence, the situation in Northern Ireland would certainly be unstabilised. The unionist attitude is one of identification with Britain and Britishness, and the British state would have ceased to exist.

It's misleading to view the Presbyterians as a 40% minority among Northern Protestants. The last census figures were:
Presbyterians 348,742
Church of Ireland + Methodists 316,961 (I've put them together since Methodists were basically an 18th/19th-century secession from the Church of Ireland)
It's impossible to guess the ancestry of the adherents of other Protestant denominations, so it's reasonable to suppose that the majority of Northern Protestants are of Scottish ancestry.

I doubt if most Presbyterians would see themselves as Scottish rather than English, any more than members of the Church of Ireland would see themselves as English rather than Scottish.

Northern Protestants would find themselves in a United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland and thus would find themselves as an extension of England rather than of Britain. Financially, it would be unwise for them to look to Scotland for help when England has so much more resources. Even if Scotland was willing to consider a link-up, which it would not.

They would still have the monarchy. The SNP have made it clear that Elizabeth would still be Queen of Scotland as well as Queen of the UK of EWNI (just as she is already Queen of Canada, Queen of Australia etc.)

Looking for independence seems quite a possibility. Would Northern nationalists be willing to accept Elizabeth as Queen of an independent Northern Ireland with some sort of internationally-guaranteed safeguards against discrimination?
 


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