Seamus Martin lashes out at Madam

former wesleyan

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Former editor of the Irish Times and champagne socialist - well he owns a vineyard - took a swipe at his old employers in todays Irish Times letters.
Wilfully misinterpreting the remarks of Sgt Coyne of the Royal Irish, Martin implies that standards have dropped since he quit. Really ?
Why is a remark suggesting that Irish soldiers may be frustrated at a lack of UN duties taken to be denigration and why should its inclusion in an Irish Times article on BA recruiting be seen as a lowering of standards ? Ireland viewed from the South of France !!


The Irish Times - Letters
 


johnfás

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Isn't the joy of a proper newspaper that the editor permits somebody to publish an opinion piece, and then freely publishes letters from those with a different point of view.
 

He3

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Former editor of the Irish Times and champagne socialist - well he owns a vineyard - took a swipe at his old employers in todays Irish Times letters.
Wilfully misinterpreting the remarks of Sgt Coyne of the Royal Irish, Martin implies that standards have dropped since he quit. Really ?
Why is a remark suggesting that Irish soldiers may be frustrated at a lack of UN duties taken to be denigration and why should its inclusion in an Irish Times article on BA recruiting be seen as a lowering of standards ? Ireland viewed from the South of France !!
Why do you say he was formerly an editor of the paper? Is the rest of your post as accurate as that?

There were three letters on the topic, each one critical of the paper. None in support. That in itself was interesting.
 
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pujols

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Think Martin has a point.

And the standards at the IT have been on a downward slope for a while now. To me, it has a more tabloid mentality every day.
 

johnfás

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Why do you say he was formerly an editor of the paper? Is the rest of your post as accurate as that?
Seamus Martin used to be the International Editor of the Irish Times. He is Diarmuid Martin's brother.
 

pujols

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Don't think they make champagne in the south either...
 

Scipio

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Former editor of the Irish Times and champagne socialist - well he owns a vineyard - took a swipe at his old employers in todays Irish Times letters.
Wilfully misinterpreting the remarks of Sgt Coyne of the Royal Irish, Martin implies that standards have dropped since he quit. Really ?
Why is a remark suggesting that Irish soldiers may be frustrated at a lack of UN duties taken to be denigration and why should its inclusion in an Irish Times article on BA recruiting be seen as a lowering of standards ? Ireland viewed from the South of France !!
I don't agree with the major premise of Martin's argument, i.e. that standards have dropped at the IT, but the Squaddie's remarks were somewhat denigrating. They were definitely bone-headed.

He referred to Irish soldiers as "fat", "lazy" and in some instances overpaid, all the while in the service of a foreign power, and one with a very particular reputation in relation to this country at that.

Martin clearly has other reasons for writing to the Times, but if it wasn't him, it'd surely be someone else. Coyne's remarks were in bad taste, to say the least.
 

johnfás

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Coyne's remarks were in bad taste, to say the least.
But should they be silenced? As I said, surely the joy of a proper newspaper is, in part, the ability to publish a controversial opinion and then allow other contributors to the newspaper and readers, through the letters pages, to make their own judgment on the piece. The article did not appear as an editorial.
 

Scipio

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But should they be silenced? As I said, surely the joy of a proper newspaper is, in part, the ability to publish a controversial opinion and then allow other contributors to the newspaper and readers, through the letters pages, to make their own judgment on the piece. The article did not appear as an editorial.
I agree, and as I said, Martin probably has other motives for writing that letter. I'm sure most Irish people reading the piece would share his aversion at Coyne's comments though.
 

eoghanacht

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The pro-Brit IT publishing desparaging remarks about the Irish Army made by a British Army solider albeit an irish one, well i never.
 

pujols

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But should they be silenced? As I said, surely the joy of a proper newspaper is, in part, the ability to publish a controversial opinion and then allow other contributors to the newspaper and readers, through the letters pages, to make their own judgment on the piece. The article did not appear as an editorial.
I think in another age, the article or opinion would probably have been expressed more eloquently and less offensively. I think that was the joy of reading the IT.

It has definitely taken a different tone in recent years and I think Martin was right to make the point that he did. It must be hard to see somewhere you worked 'lift your hem' to increase popularity and sales.

I still read it but I don't like what it is becoming.
 

seabhac siulach

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The question to ask would be: is the Irish Times receiving ad money from the British government, acting as it is as a recruiting sergeant for the British Army?

First there were the propaganda- like pieces from an Irishman serving in the British army in Afghanistan, and now the lauding of those Irishmen that serve with the British army. The British are obviously eager for Irish cannon-fodder for their war in Afghanistan, but why is the Irish TImes banging the drum?

While I have no problem with Irishmen serving in the armed forces of a fellow EU state, one may ask why the Irish Times never runs a series on, say, the armed forces that belong in our EU battlegroup (Finland, Sweden, Norway, Estonia) or, say, the Irishmen that serve in the French Foreign Legion, etc.?
Why the obsession with the British army? Very curious...
 
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pujols

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To be fair, I suspect that the numbers of Irish serving in the armed forces of the countries you mentioned is very low, possibly owing to language issues.
 

seabhac siulach

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To be fair, I suspect that the numbers of Irish serving in the armed forces of the countries you mentioned is very low, possibly owing to language issues.
Yes, but there must be some, esp. in the French foreign legion. Similarly, I would imagine there are a fair few in the US army. But there are never reports on them, solely on our 'chaps' serving the Queen and (neighbouring) country. The question would be why? Is there money changing hands? If so, then those reports should be correctly classified as recruitment ads...
 

sgtharper

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I don't agree with the major premise of Martin's argument, i.e. that standards have dropped at the IT, but the Squaddie's remarks were somewhat denigrating. They were definitely bone-headed.

He referred to Irish soldiers as "fat", "lazy" and in some instances overpaid, all the while in the service of a foreign power, and one with a very particular reputation in relation to this country at that.

...... Coyne's remarks were in bad taste, to say the least.
You're being somewhat selective in your interpretation I think, what he's quoted as saying was:

"“They want to go to places like Afghanistan. The Irish Army doesn’t offer anything like that. Sure, they have a stable job for five years, but with very slow promotion,” says Coyne. “They want extra money for going away to places for six weeks. And you can buy your way out. Guys [in the Irish Army] are getting bored and fat and lazy. And they come back from UN missions with €25,000 in the bank. There’s nobody in the British army getting anything like that, even with the improvement in the overseas allowance brought in by David Cameron."

I don't think people should be over-excited by this, I have now idea if it's true in the physical sense but he may have a point as regards mental atitude and the desire to go on operations purely for financial gain. That kind of extra money money for doing what is after all your job, for which you are aleady well paid, does seem excesive in my opinion. Anyway, if an Irishman can't criticise the Irish Army then who can?
 

pujols

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Yes, but there must be some, esp. in the French foreign legion. Similarly, I would imagine there are a fair few in the US army. But there are never reports on them, solely on our 'chaps' serving the Queen and (neighbouring) country. The question would be why? Is there money changing hands? If so, then those reports should be correctly classified as recruitment ads...
I imagine the lads in the Legion are looking to forget...
 

Scipio

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You're being somewhat selective in your interpretation I think, what he's quoted as saying was:

"“They want to go to places like Afghanistan. The Irish Army doesn’t offer anything like that. Sure, they have a stable job for five years, but with very slow promotion,” says Coyne. “They want extra money for going away to places for six weeks. And you can buy your way out. Guys [in the Irish Army] are getting bored and fat and lazy. And they come back from UN missions with €25,000 in the bank. There’s nobody in the British army getting anything like that, even with the improvement in the overseas allowance brought in by David Cameron."

I don't think people should be over-excited by this, I have now idea if it's true in the physical sense but he may have a point as regards mental atitude and the desire to go on operations purely for financial gain. That kind of extra money money for doing what is after all your job, for which you are aleady well paid, does seem excesive in my opinion. Anyway, if an Irishman can't criticise the Irish Army then who can?
I'm not being selective. He called Irish troops fat, lazy money-grabbers who, if they've served abroad, can "buy their way out". I don't mind who criticizes the Irish Army if they've some sort of fact to back it up, but as far as I can see, all Coyne has is sour grapes.

At any time, I'd find his comments in poor taste. Given that he's also currently in the service of a foreign army, they're quite frankly reprehensible and people have every right to call him up on it.
 

sgtharper

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I'm not being selective. He called Irish troops fat, lazy money-grabbers who, if they've served abroad, can "buy their way out". I don't mind who criticizes the Irish Army if they've some sort of fact to back it up, but as far as I can see, all Coyne has is sour grapes.
Why would he, he's a Senior NCO with 13yrs service and a wealth of operational experience and training behind him that few in the DF could match, what's he got to feel "sour"about? Remember, his dad is a senior figure in the PA's so I imagine he's pretty well informed on goings-on in the DF?

At any time, I'd find his comments in poor taste. Given that he's also currently in the service of a foreign army, they're quite frankly reprehensible and people have every right to call him up on it.
"Poor taste"? "reprehensible"?.... He hasn't pi**ed on the Tricolour you know, just made a few blunt observations, which may just have some merit in them after all. I think you're over-reacting here, chill out.
 

Deliverer

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I don't agree with the major premise of Martin's argument, i.e. that standards have dropped at the IT, but the Squaddie's remarks were somewhat denigrating. They were definitely bone-headed.

He referred to Irish soldiers as "fat", "lazy" and in some instances overpaid, all the while in the service of a foreign power, and one with a very particular reputation in relation to this country at that.

Martin clearly has other reasons for writing to the Times, but if it wasn't him, it'd surely be someone else. Coyne's remarks were in bad taste, to say the least.

How can anyone deny it?

Female army recruits spend time fighting injuries - Times Online


Three years ago, the Irish army ordered a crackdown on overweight troops, placing 20 soldiers on Xenical, a powerful weight-loss drug. “Our recruits may not be as fit as we desire, but they are not obese,” said Kerr.

Irish applicants, 90% of whom fail to make the basic army grade because of age, health and education requirements, compare poorly with their American cousins. About 57% of Irish males suffer first-time injuries during basic training, compared with 28% of Americans. But 99% of Irish female recruits suffer a first-time injury compared with 63% of American females.
 


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