Secession

Socratus O' Pericles

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Straightforward enough, it seems, if "overseas and a former colony then secession is OK, if land border only...........then what?:


The term secession designates the unilateral withdrawal from a state of part of its territory and population with the will to create a new state.

It is commonly admitted today that, outside the context of decolonization and situations of military occupation, there is no “right” to create an independent state. “External self-determination” was granted to colonized peoples only on the basis of the “salt-water” test-U.N. Resolution 637. But this does not mean that secession is prohibited. The real criterion for the emergence of a new state, outside the colonial context, is the principle of effectiveness: if a secessionist entity succeeds in fulfilling the conditions of statehood, a new state is born
http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199796953/obo-9780199796953-0044.xmlt


Secession is on the Agenda the world over:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_the_Autonomous_Republic_of_Abkhazia

https://Tens of Countries In Europe en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe

Obviously Catalonia is the current pressing isssue but Flanders, Kurdistan and Yemen are also controversial

Not to mention issues in Ireland and Scotland. California and The South, Native Americans........

And on, and on...........


I heard of a study on radio recently (so sorry can't link) that up to 8,000 new "countries" could be established if every secessionist claim were conceded.



I'm going out tonight to start the Free Ballybrack Movement- we want an independent republic separating us from the ragmen in the noggin, the klipes in Killiney and the clots in Cabinteely. Baile Breac Saor, Baile Breac Sona is my motto.



Can any "autonomous group" that can deliver the votes have its own independent country?
 


between the bridges

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Free the Lakeland Kingdom...
 

Hunter-Gatherer

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Or the free thinking theocracy of monkstown. Certainly the gaeltachts have no place in the modern Ireland and should be expelled into the sea. What about the ancient caliphate of Longford ? Or rebel cork ? The latter having the most opaque dialect.
 

Socratus O' Pericles

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Or the free thinking theocracy of monkstown. Certainly the gaeltachts have no place in the modern Ireland and should be expelled into the sea. What about the ancient caliphate of Longford ? Or rebel cork ? The latter having the most opaque dialect.
Certainly support the idea of a PROC, I'd wish them every success with their venture.petunia
 

Mercurial

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There are a couple of different views about when secession can be justified.

The two main ones are the Remedial Right Only view, which says that secession is only legitimate if necessary to protect people from the systematic violation of their fundamental rights, and freedom of association views which say that any majority large enough (or perhaps only national groups, on some versions) to protect the rights of those within the new state, should have the right to secede.
 

Socratus O' Pericles

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There's only 240k Abkhazis and yet there seems to be quite a pinch point here:

During the Georgian–Abkhaz conflict, the Russian authorities and military supplied logistical and military aid to the separatist side.[52] Today, Russia still maintains a strong political and military influence over separatist rule in Abkhazia. Russia has also issued passports to the citizens of Abkhazia since 2000 (as Abkhazian passports cannot be used for international travel) and subsequently paid them retirement pensions and other monetary benefits. More than 80% of the Abkhazian population had received Russian passports by 2006. As Russian citizens living abroad, Abkhazians do not pay Russian taxes or serve in the Russian Army.[124][125] About 53,000 Abkhazian passports have been issued as of May 2007
I suppose the same could happen in Ukraine?
 

Socratus O' Pericles

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There are a couple of different views about when secession can be justified.

The two main ones are the Remedial Right Only view, which says that secession is only legitimate if necessary to protect people from the systematic violation of their fundamental rights, and freedom of association views which say that any majority large enough (or perhaps only national groups, on some versions) to protect the rights of those within the new state, should have the right to secede.
Link?
 

Socratus O' Pericles

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Thank you.

So Free Catalonia fans what about this:

The second chief justification for democracy is instrumental: It holds that democratic governance tends to promote important goods, including peace, freedom, and other dimensions of well-being. Once again, the force of the justification depends upon the assumption that what is being justified is a process of decision making for a polity. The claim is that the well-being of all the citizens will be best served if all the citizens are allowed to express their preferences through voting, at least on fundamental matters that affect all. Plainly, this argument cannot support the assertion that only some citizens (those in a particular portion of the polity) ought to be able unilaterally to decide a matter that will affect all citizens of the polity. Hence it cannot support the Plebiscitary Right view of the unilateral right to secede. Because neither of the justifications for democracy supports the Plebiscitary view, the latter is not entailed by the commitment to democracy.

It has to be an All Spain vote, it seems?
 

Mercurial

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Thank you.

So Free Catalonia fans what about this:




It has to be an All Spain vote, it seems?
The argument you've quoted above works (or is said to work) under the assumption that we lack "an account of the normative significance of the fact of occupancy".

In other words - if the people of Catalonia are entitled to live in their own state, we need an account that explains why their state should correspond with the particular piece of territory they currently occupy.

It seems to me that coming up with such an account isn't likely to be as difficult as Buchanan supposes.
 

Breanainn

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Thank you.

So Free Catalonia fans what about this:




It has to be an All Spain vote, it seems?
One wouldn't expect the whole of the UK to vote in a future Scottish independence referendum, or for the people of Canada to override the views of Quebec on secession - rather to ensure that the democratic will has been fairly expressed, a turnout threshold should be enforced, and a legal Catalan referendum would certainly see 60-70% of the electorate at the polls.
 

GDPR

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I understand there are about 30 "micronations" in Australia. The most famous is Hutt River in Western Australia. It even has its own wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hutt_River

Australia is kind of bigger than Ireland. How many micronations can fit into the Island of Ireland? Will it bring about wars again as it was between the kingdoms before the poms invaded the second time around?
 


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