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Second level teachers to have over 4 years of unpaid work imposed by both Croke Park agreements.


RobertW

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Feb 11, 2011
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The two Croke Park Agreements (although the second has yet to be agreed) have/will imposed large cuts on the terms and conditions of employment of all public sector workers since the introduction of the original Croke Park agreement imposed in 2010.

As has been mentioned before teachers in Irish schools spend more time classroom teaching than most teachers in other OECD countries - http://www.politics.ie/forum/education-science/194760-irish-teachers-spend-more-time-classroom-teaching-than-teachers-virtually-every-other-eu-state.html

As the link above shows full time post primary teachers in Ireland spend 735 hours in front of students annually. Over a 40 year career this equates to 29,400 hours

The original Croke Park Agreement imposed an extra 33 hours annually - all done outside official school opening hours.

The new Croke Park agreement is set to impose a further 43 hours in front of students in the form of supervision & substitution during school opening hours and in the classroom. This will leave teachers with virtually no preparatory time.

So overall a further official 76 hours is to be added to the workload of full time teachers per annum - this equates to 811 hours per annum or 32,440 over a forty year career.

This represents an increase of 3,040 hours over a 40 career . . . or over 4 years extra unpaid (if one year assumes 735 hours)

This does not take into account the fact that the additional hours that teachers volunteer, the fact that they effectively cannot be promoted (due to the recruitment embargo), two separate pay cuts, worse non-cert sick leave entitlement (7 days over 24 months), worse maternity leave entitlements, separate pay cuts for new teachers, pending abolition of the junior cert . . with teachers to do the work instead. . . . . . .

With unions like these. . . .

VOTE NO TO CROKE PARK 2 . . . AGAIN!
 

Dunlin3

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You'll get over it, just think of all the advantages!.....June, July and August!!
 

Sync

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So how many hours a year will teachers work in total now?
 

RobertW

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So how many hours a year will teachers work in total now?
I think the opening post makes that quite clear.

These figures in the OP refer only to teaching/CP1 hours ONLY with no hours for other duties required of a teacher.
 

Socratus O' Pericles

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Jayziz, 735 hours in a year? I work that in 18 weeks and I thought I had it handy.

There was couple renovating a house in France on Grand Designs and they worked 700 hours each in eight weeks. They didn't thinlk they had it handy tho'-they just enjoyed their work.:)

ASTI HQ is saying:
Under the revised proposals:

All teachers would have to engage in S&S up to a maximum of 43 hours per year. They would have to be available for substitution for 5 timetabled class periods per week, and to engage in S&S for a maximum of 3 hours.

S&S payments would be discontinued with effect from the 2013/2014 school year. However, to compensate, a gross additional payment of €796 would be included in the incremental scale for teachers in 2016/2017 and a further €796 would be included in the incremental scale in the school year 2017/2018, i.e. a total salary increase of €1,592 for each teacher.

Cover would not be required for the first day of bereavement leave or of certified sick leave. Cover for the first day of force majeure leave under S&S would be deferred to 2014/2015 school year.

Everyone's hours are going up this looks not dissimilar to others when taken in context.
 

Watcher2

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May 2, 2010
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34,133
The two Croke Park Agreements (although the second has yet to be agreed) have/will imposed large cuts on the terms and conditions of employment of all public sector workers since the introduction of the original Croke Park agreement imposed in 2010.

As has been mentioned before teachers in Irish schools spend more time classroom teaching than most teachers in other OECD countries - http://www.politics.ie/forum/education-science/194760-irish-teachers-spend-more-time-classroom-teaching-than-teachers-virtually-every-other-eu-state.html

As the link above shows full time post primary teachers in Ireland spend 735 hours in front of students annually. Over a 40 year career this equates to 29,400 hours

The original Croke Park Agreement imposed an extra 33 hours annually - all done outside official school opening hours.

The new Croke Park agreement is set to impose a further 43 hours in front of students in the form of supervision & substitution during school opening hours and in the classroom. This will leave teachers with virtually no preparatory time.

So overall a further official 76 hours is to be added to the workload of full time teachers per annum - this equates to 811 hours per annum or 32,440 over a forty year career.

This represents an increase of 3,040 hours over a 40 career . . . or over 4 years extra unpaid (if one year assumes 735 hours)

This does not take into account the fact that the additional hours that teachers volunteer, the fact that they effectively cannot be promoted (due to the recruitment embargo), two separate pay cuts, worse non-cert sick leave entitlement (7 days over 24 months), worse maternity leave entitlements, separate pay cuts for new teachers, pending abolition of the junior cert . . with teachers to do the work instead. . . . . . .

With unions like these. . . .

VOTE NO TO CROKE PARK 2 . . . AGAIN!
Worse maternity leave entitlements??? You must be joking when you include that in your list of gripes. I know a female second level teacher who has worked only a few measly weeks in the past five years because of maternity leave entitlements and she has been on full pay. Not the social welfare floor and ceiling, the actual pay she would have received if she was actually teaching in the classroom.

This is a silly op as there are many far, far worse off as a result of the down turn.
 

Andycap

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Feb 22, 2012
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1,277
This is shocking.

735 hours a year in front of kids.

If you assume 80% of their work is in front of kids I.e 20% of their job is prepping for class, then they work an miserly 920 hr per year.

Compare that to a proper job.
920 hours divided by (52 weeks less 6 weeks holidays) and it works out at 20hours work a week or 4 hours per day.

No wonder Ireland is screwed.
 

RobertW

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Worse maternity leave entitlements??? You must be joking when you include that in your list of gripes. I know a female second level teacher who has worked only a few measly weeks in the past five years because of maternity leave entitlements and she has been on full pay. Not the social welfare floor and ceiling, the actual pay she would have received if she was actually teaching in the classroom.

This is a silly op as there are many far, far worse off as a result of the down turn.
How do you not know that that teacher is on unpaid leave?.

Silly OP? . .Why?

Because it doesn't match your prejudice?
 

RobertW

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This is shocking.

735 hours a year in front of kids.

If you assume 80% of their work is in front of kids I.e 20% of their job is prepping for class, then they work an miserly 920 hr per year.

Compare that to a proper job.
920 hours divided by (52 weeks less 6 weeks holidays) and it works out at 20hours work a week or 4 hours per day.

No wonder Ireland is screwed.
Again. . .Completely Irrelevant.
 

Sync

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So 735 + 43 = 778 hours a year.

Let's be INCREDIBLY generous and say that teachers then spent 33% additional hours on all the other stuff you're talking about, so volunteering/parent meetings/prep work, that gives you 259 hours additionally for a 1037 total.

There are 253 working days a year, let's say knock off 20 days for the average employee giving you 233 days for regular folks. That's an average of just over 4 hours a working day. Is that about right?

So while your average office worker is working 233 days a year, 8 hours a day, you're working the equivalent of half their day.

How widespread do you think support will be for your cause here?

If you think it's irrelevant that you're in well paid, secure work in a tanked economy while working half the time of most other workers then you keep thinking that. But this is the reason no one's going to care if the teachers start whining about this. But the unions are grown ups and know when they have a good thing. They'll suck it up.
 

A REASON

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Feb 21, 2011
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Aren't jobs scarce in the secondary level teaching area and all teaching areas for that matter?
More jobs will become available if they're working for free I suppose, a bit like the jobsbridge scam.
 

gatsbygirl20

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Dec 1, 2008
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22,790
There was couple renovating a house in France on Grand Designs and they worked 700 hours each in eight weeks. They didn't thinlk they had it handy tho'-they just enjoyed their work.:)

ASTI HQ is saying:



Everyone's hours are going up this looks not dissimilar to others when taken in context.
The fact that class contact only forms part of a teacher's required workload, and that managing the behaviour of a few hundred adolescents with a turnaround every 40 minutes, is different to office or administrative work, is recognised in the fact that secondary teachers in other European countries have less class contact hours than Irish teachers, and that ours are considered quite high even as they stand.....

Visiting teachers from other countries on school exchanges often comment on our high class contact requirement "When do you prepare lessons?....correct your students' tests and homework?..meet your students?....deal with difficult students..?" They might well add (although few of them have our inspection system) "When do you prepare all that admin and paperwork for inspections?"

So class contact is not what it seems...
 

RobertW

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So 735 + 43 = 778 hours a year.

Let's be INCREDIBLY generous and say that teachers then spent 33% additional hours on all the other stuff you're talking about, so volunteering/parent meetings/prep work, that gives you 259 hours additionally for a 1037 total.

There are 253 working days a year, let's say knock off 20 days for the average employee giving you 233 days for regular folks. That's an average of just over 4 hours a working day. Is that about right?

So while your average office worker is working 233 days a year, 8 hours a day, you're working the equivalent of half their day.

How widespread do you think support will be for your cause here?
This is not relevant. . . .for the third time. I'm not interested in your statistics.

I'm making the point that the two Croke Park Agreements will impose over 4 years of unpaid work. I'm not looking for comparatives as I don't really care. I don't have a cause.

Look at the OECD statistics linked in the opening post. . . If teachers in Ireland were employed elsewhere they'd be working a lot less.

PS It's to be 735 + 33 + 43
 

A REASON

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Feb 21, 2011
Messages
7,651
The fact that class contact only forms part of a teacher's required workload, and that managing the behaviour of a few hundred adolescents with a turnaround every 40 minutes, is different to office or administrative work, is recognised in the fact that secondary teachers in other European countries have less class contact hours than Irish teachers, and that ours are considered quite high even as they stand.....

Visiting teachers from other countries on school exchanges often comment on our high class contact requirement "When do you prepare lessons?....correct your students' tests and homework?..meet your students?....deal with difficult students..?" They might well add (although few of them have our inspection system) "When do you prepare all that admin and paperwork for inspections?"

So class contact is not what it seems...
I have sympathy for teachers but you know most people have hatred for teachers. It's not because of the long holidays or they get it easy reasons but because everyone has had some really horrible teachers in the past. When they think of teachers they think of them and feel they deserve nothing.
I think teachers should get a good deal but only if it becomes easier to remove poor teachers from the system.
 

Watcher2

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May 2, 2010
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How do you not know that that teacher is on unpaid leave?.

Silly OP? . .Why?

Because it doesn't match your prejudice?
Because she is a friend of mine and told me.

It's silly because of the unreal world in which teachers operate. Two of my brothers are teachers and they simply don't get real world working. One of them complains if he ever doesn't get home until 6pm. He is a vice principal in a primary school. Working after 5pm is a rarity. Bless his little cotton socks. How is he ever gonna get through the next 5 weeks till he has 8 or 9 weeks off.
 
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