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Sectarianism 'alive and well' in Dublin, says Church of Ireland archbishop


Schomberg

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Interesting little tidbit from the Archbishop of Dublin Michael jackson yesterday

Sectarianism is “alive and well” in Dublin, the Church of Ireland Archbishop of Dublin, Michael Jackson, has said.

Speaking at a colloquium in Trinity College Dublin at the weekend, he said: “My own experience since returning to work in Dublin is that sectarianism, although polite in speech and smile, is alive and well in instinct and in prejudice. It is for this reason that I am particularly slow to agree that ‘the bad old days’ are behind us.”
Sectarianism 'alive and well' in Dublin, says Church of Ireland archbishop - Religious News & Affairs | The Irish Times - Mon, Apr 15, 2013


certainly agree with him, the further north and closer to the border you get the less polite it can be. Side note, I noticed protestant Cllr Ian McGarveys home in Ramelton was attacked and daubed with spray painted messages which included the word "orange". Some nonsense too directed at protestant owned buildings in Kilmacrennan, added to the St. Anns in Ballyshannon (attacked more than once) I'm starting to think all the money Donegal CC is throwing at an anti-sectarianism campaign isn't as wasteful as I originally figured. Now, nothing like other parts of the world naturally, but my (and I dare say, the Archbishops) objection is to the notion that it's just non existent, was never a factor, never will be a factor. "We" are all enlighten children of the Renaissance while "they" are all filthly uncivilised animals.

Anyhoo, the most interesting part of Jacksons words in that article is this:

In the Church of Ireland “many were content to see the Roman Catholic Church as holding a moral monopoly right across Ireland and many in the Roman Catholic Church and in society were happy to be beneficiaries of this self-granted status.

With a degree of self-indulgent cynicism, sections of the Church of Ireland were happy to use this as a moral backdrop while rejoicing to trumpet their difference . . .
Would appreciate comment on this from both everyone with a Papist and Blackmouth background on those statements. I think that could be better served in a thread all of it's own, but not sure how the same article would go down with our overseers...
 


johnfás

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Sectarianism will always exist as will racism, sexism and all other negative isms. However, it is true to say that sectarianism retains an air of comic acceptability that does not continue to exist in our society vis-a-vis other isms. For example, I was at the match in Thomond Park last weekend. When Leinster scored a conversion I overheard a statement of "************************************g leinster, ************************************g Protestants" behind me. Such statements have a continued acceptance which would not be the case had the word been replaced by gays, blacks or most others.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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Interesting little tidbit from the Archbishop of Dublin Michael jackson yesterday



Sectarianism 'alive and well' in Dublin, says Church of Ireland archbishop - Religious News & Affairs | The Irish Times - Mon, Apr 15, 2013


certainly agree with him, the further north and closer to the border you get the less polite it can be. Side note, I noticed protestant Cllr Ian McGarveys home in Ramelton was attacked and daubed with spray painted messages which included the word "orange". Some nonsense too directed at protestant owned buildings in Kilmacrennan, added to the St. Anns in Ballyshannon (attacked more than once) I'm starting to think all the money Donegal CC is throwing at an anti-sectarianism campaign isn't as wasteful as I originally figured. Now, nothing like other parts of the world naturally, but my (and I dare say, the Archbishops) objection is to the notion that it's just non existent, was never a factor, never will be a factor. "We" are all enlighten children of the Renaissance while "they" are all filthly uncivilised animals.

Anyhoo, the most interesting part of Jacksons words in that article is this:



Would appreciate comment on this from both everyone with a Papist and Blackmouth background on those statements. I think that could be better served in a thread all of it's own, but not sure how the same article would go down with our overseers...
Unfortunately it still does exist.

I noticed it at xmas when back when talking to friends in the pub, who were telling me about incidents that had happened during the year when catching up on the gossip.

It was notable that most of the incidents affecting protestants I know in Donegal were with new arrivals from Derry who had moved to Donegal over the last five to ten years, yet practically no incidents with Poles, Estonians, Lithuanians, etc, who only seem to fight amongst themselves. I know of one catholic guy who got hit outside a bar because the Derry export to Donegal thought that because he had a small farm he had to be protestant.

It definitely is still there.

However I do think the Celtic Tiger years and church scandals have indirectly created a situation where the sectarian thinking has been dropping in general. Just my opinion.

I am not suprised about a sectarian attack at Ballyshannon. There has always been a lot of idiots around there. Most of the clashes there are north-south type clashes, regardless of religion. Religion can be an excuse for them to start trouble, but would happen anyway as it is usually youths out looking for trouble.

The attack in Ramelton does suprise me. The community there does not give a damn if catholic or protestant. The most important thing there is to buy your round, regardless of religion. I hope it was not locals that carried out that attack. Ramelton is a very quiet town, about which there are rarely any incidents of any type.
 
Last edited:

Nemesiscorporation

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Sectarianism will always exist as will racism, sexism and all other negative isms. However, it is true to say that sectarianism retains an air of comic acceptability that does not continue to exist in our society vis-a-vis other isms. For example, I was at the match in Thomond Park last weekend. When Leinster scored a conversion I overheard a statement of "************************************g leinster, ************************************g Protestants" behind me. Such statements have a continued acceptance which would not be the case had the word been replaced by gays, blacks or most others.
True enough.

However that does not mean that we should accept it.

I think where ever there is bigotry, we should try to face it down as it is a cancer in society.
 

Shqiptar

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Is Donegal a special case? I worked in Letterkenny about 10 years ago and one pub/hotel owner (in Dunfanaghy, I think) painted a big Union Jack on the front of his premises to protest against.....something. I don't recall.....he was p__ed off with British people or NI Protestants in the area.

I live in a border area and I'm not aware of any sectarianism but I could be wrong.
 

Shqiptar

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Re the IT article in the OP, I wish the Archbishop had given some actual examples.
 

shutuplaura

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In that there is a generally accepted view that protestants are somehow different then there is certainly low level sectarianism in Dublin. As frankly I don't know any protestants (to my knowledge anyway) I cannot really imagine what form this sectarianism takes. I would be surprised if it translates to discrimination and honestly, while unacceptable, it is the sort of thing that will die out as religion in general becomes less important in the south.

I did have a strange conversation with a guy in a Dublin pub once. Somehow our respective religions did come into it - he mentioned he was protestant and I asked him if he'd ever experienced discrimination. He said he did but his example left me wondering - having to stand for the national anthem at a sporting event. I can see how that would be distasteful to someone, but I wouldn't personally have considered it sectarianism.
I guess I mean it depends on the definition. I'd be surprised if it affected any protestant Irish people's lives in any way. I certainly hope this is the case as it is clearly unacceptable. I would have thought racism towards foreigners replaced the last vestiges of serious southern sectarianism in the last two decades.
 

Levellers

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Jackson is talking rubbish. I work with a number of Protestants [a lapsed catholic atheist myself] and the only time religion is mentioned is asking questions like 'do you have nuns in the CoI?'
 

cricket

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I can honestly say I don't understand much of what the bishop is saying. Seems to be aimed at an exclusive, academic audience, using terms that I couldn't be bothered to try to understand.
 

Shqiptar

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I can honestly say I don't understand much of what the bishop is saying. Seems to be aimed at an exclusive, academic audience, using terms that I couldn't be bothered to try to understand.
I found myself wondering if he was referring to fellow clergymen in the Roman Catholic Church rather than the wider society.
 

Cruimh

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Jackson is talking rubbish. I work with a number of Protestants [a lapsed catholic atheist myself] and the only time religion is mentioned is asking questions like 'do you have nuns in the CoI?'
And your experience proves what?

sectarianism, although polite in speech and smile, is alive and well in instinct and in prejudice.
Have you considered that you may just not have noticed?
After all he isn't saying that the sectarianism is blatant and open .....
 

Eoin Coir

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Re the IT article in the OP, I wish the Archbishop had given some actual examples.
Its only a few years ago since Cardinal O Connell described his predecessor Dr. Empy as a lightweight in theology, the Church of Ireland Eucharist as a " sham". Not in the distant past but only a few short years ago.
 

SilverSpurs

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Interesting little tidbit from the Archbishop of Dublin Michael jackson yesterday



Sectarianism 'alive and well' in Dublin, says Church of Ireland archbishop - Religious News & Affairs | The Irish Times - Mon, Apr 15, 2013


certainly agree with him, the further north and closer to the border you get the less polite it can be. Side note, I noticed protestant Cllr Ian McGarveys home in Ramelton was attacked and daubed with spray painted messages which included the word "orange". Some nonsense too directed at protestant owned buildings in Kilmacrennan, added to the St. Anns in Ballyshannon (attacked more than once) I'm starting to think all the money Donegal CC is throwing at an anti-sectarianism campaign isn't as wasteful as I originally figured. Now, nothing like other parts of the world naturally, but my (and I dare say, the Archbishops) objection is to the notion that it's just non existent, was never a factor, never will be a factor. "We" are all enlighten children of the Renaissance while "they" are all filthly uncivilised animals.

Anyhoo, the most interesting part of Jacksons words in that article is this:



Would appreciate comment on this from both everyone with a Papist and Blackmouth background on those statements. I think that could be better served in a thread all of it's own, but not sure how the same article would go down with our overseers...
I found his complaint of 'moral monopolies' frankly idiotic. I oppose any form of discrimination or prejudice based on skyfairy preference and there must be tolerance of minority viewpoints no matter how bonkers they may be (as long as they do not advocate violence) but by the same token those in minorities have to accept that there will often be a majority who disagree with them even if the reasons for that disagreement may seem trivial or ridiculous. Unless the majority are proposing or advocating violence against the minority then the bishop will have to 'suck it up' as Brian O'Driscoll famously says.

Ironically the bishop is playing the stereotype of protestants in Ireland; that of a pretentious, aloof elite who believe they are somehow 'more enlightened' than the great unwashed.
 

Shqiptar

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Its only a few years ago since Cardinal O Connell described his predecessor Dr. Empy as a lightweight in theology, the Church of Ireland Eucharist as a " sham". Not in the distant past but only a few short years ago.
The "sham" comment was made in 1997, 16 years ago. The other remarks were made around 2000-01, I think. But I think you might be on to something in that the comments were made by a Roman Catholic cleric, a widely disliked and divisive figure.
 

SilverSpurs

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Its only a few years ago since Cardinal O Connell described his predecessor Dr. Empy as a lightweight in theology, the Church of Ireland Eucharist as a " sham". Not in the distant past but only a few short years ago.
I would consider myself a 'watcher' of world religions while not believing in any skyfairy myself but if one professes to be of a religion then surely you have to accept all of it or none of it. As such if you call yourself christian then you surely must practice all of it including repeating the 'last supper' in its entirety as mandated in the christian texts not by leaving out its centrepiece.
 

Shqiptar

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Now, nothing like other parts of the world naturally, but my (and I dare say, the Archbishops) objection is to the notion that it's just non existent, was never a factor, never will be a factor. "We" are all enlighten children of the Renaissance while "they" are all filthly uncivilised animals.
Schomberg, I don't know where you got the bit in bold. It's completely at variance with the tone of the Archbishop's comments.
 

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