• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please us viua the Contact us link in the footer.

Serbia, Yugoslavia and all that...


teanganua

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
7
Website
www.teanganua.pro.ie
Serbia has recognised secession by Macedonia and Montenegro with no problems, only asked Serb areas of Croatia and Bosnia stay with Serbia, and only asks same of Kosovo.

The Presevo Valley is a good bargaining chip for North Kosovo. Its worth noting Kosovar expansionist ambitions in Prsevo and Macedonia.

Also their treatment of Roma in Kosovo

Read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_in_Mitrovica_Camps for details of same.
 


Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
19,087
Germany only asks that the Sudeten people, Austria, the people of Alsace Lorraine, East Prussia, and the corridor to it, be incorporated into the Reich...

What is it with you people that the plantation of Ulster is rightly condemned three-hundred years later, but the murder of thousands in the process of the same sort of ethnic cleansing only a few years ago is just forgotten. You whinge about Cromwell, but see no problem in rewarding the actions of Arkan, Mladic and Karadic. Fascist murdering bastards now en vogue with RSF?
 

teanganua

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
7
Website
www.teanganua.pro.ie
Its that the UK is forcing standards on others they dont apply to themselves and we should show them up for it.

Also, the Albanians are not as cuddly as we would be led to believe. Read the links above...
 

Kf

Active member
Joined
Mar 31, 2003
Messages
274
Yeah what is it with many republicans and their problem with Albanian sefl determination. Its really quite odd. I think it may be more of a muddled anti-imperialist stance than anything else, ie NATO attacked Serbia; NATO is a bad imperialist project, therefore Serbia is good.
 

Thac0man

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
6,482
Twitter
twit taa woo
Kf said:
Yeah what is it with many republicans and their problem with Albanian sefl determination. Its really quite odd. I think it may be more of a muddled anti-imperialist stance than anything else, ie NATO attacked Serbia; NATO is a bad imperialist project, therefore Serbia is good.
Quite a few Irish Republicans participated in the Yugoslav civil war - none fought on the Serbian side as far as I know. So there seems to be a differance in Irish Republicanism between the doers and the talkers. The latter (in common with Tony Benn) seem to be unable to come to terms with the fact Milosovic was not a socialists so they were effectively hood winked as this was the prime reason for supporting him in the first place. I am as baffled as you Kf why many alledged Republicans still hold the cause he created dear. Especially as I have pointed out in another thread, their stance has more in common with hard core Unionists than main stream Republicanism.
 

fergalr

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
354
teanganua said:
Its that the UK is forcing standards on others they dont apply to themselves and we should show them up for it.

Also, the Albanians are not as cuddly as we would be led to believe. Read the links above...
Unlike Serbia, which only wished to spread lollipops and rainbows across the region.
 

seabhcan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
14,327
fergalr said:
teanganua said:
Its that the UK is forcing standards on others they dont apply to themselves and we should show them up for it.

Also, the Albanians are not as cuddly as we would be led to believe. Read the links above...
Unlike Serbia, which only wished to spread lollipops and rainbows across the region.
Yes, lets not forget that Serbia is the source of all evil in the world, and no other party to the conflict misbehaved in any way.

And even though Serbia handed milosevic over, and the government has changed several times since by democratic means, they are still the same evil serbians as 10 years ago.
 

fergalr

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
354
Not in the whole world but if you're apportioning the butcher's bill between the actors in the Balkans, Belgrade's portion is a lot longer than the rest.
 

Thac0man

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
6,482
Twitter
twit taa woo
seabhcan said:
And even though Serbia handed milosevic over, and the government has changed several times since by democratic means, they are still the same evil serbians as 10 years ago.
Serbia is no longer ruled by Milosovic, but Kostunica who replaced him is no less a nationalist that Milosovic was. Neither were Kostunicas supporters like Vuk Dreskovic, who in fact was even more radical. Milosovic was removed by the Serbian people because of corruption, not any war he fought or idiology he advanced.

Another factor in Milosovics removal was that the nationalist element, personified by people like Vuk Draskovic, accused Milosovic of not doing enough to support Serbians in wars in Bosnia and elsewhere. This is true, as Milosovic was only interested in using the nationalist agenda to cement his domestic power. As long as there was war, he had an excuse to maintain his iron grip on Serbia. How else was the war allowed to go on so long when Serbia had such superiority?

Ironically I believe that the turning point for Milosivic was not Operation Storm or the election that ousted him. But the deal he made and broke with the then Croatian President Tudjman. Agreeing to divide Bosnia between them Bosnia Croats launched into a war against the Bosnian government. They jumped first, but Serbia did not move. Milosovic sat by and watched as the ARBiH thrashed the life out of the Bosnian Croats. Tudjman, who had regular force in Hertzgovina, did not move them to the front and while Serbia held back on the deal. The effect was to prolong the war for Bsonian Serbs, when the chance of total victory was spurned. This in my opinion sowed the seeds of Milosovces pownfall at the hands of nationalists that up till then he counted on for support.

He was exported to the Hague, because short of killing him and making him a matyr, what were his rival Serbian nationalists going to do with him? Karadic and Mladic are still at large and it is a mark of the remaining strong nationalist ethos that still drives Serbia that they are unlikely to see the Hague any time soon. Milosovic being sent to the Hague was a poltical move to defuse inter-nationalist tensions in Serbia. If it was anything more noble Karadic and Mladic would be there now.

But your point about Serbia being a democracy is valid, but not for the reason you think. As I have said in another thread, 52% of Serbs voted for change. But I believe like the other 48% they voted for their choice out of fear, just fear of differant things. The term 'collective punishment' is bandied about with regard to the Wests treatment of Serbia. But that loaded term implies a people being punished for things done in their name and against their will or a sizable minority who are not responsible. None of those suggestions are valid. Serbias' democratic process continues to be held hostage to fear of Serbias own making. Serbia has and continues to act out of fear born out of the willful distortion of its own history, rather than hope. Which is sad. But there may be hope.
 

MichaelR

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Messages
2,048
Thac0man said:
But your point about Serbia being a democracy is valid, but not for the reason you think. As I have said in another thread, 52% of Serbs voted for change. But I believe like the other 48% they voted for their choice out of fear, just fear of differant things. The term 'collective punishment' is bandied about with regard to the Wests treatment of Serbia. But that loaded term implies a people being punished for things done in their name and against their will or a sizable minority who are not responsible. None of those suggestions are valid.
So you are trying to prove that an entire people is indeed guilty. Quite a feat!

Serbias' democratic process continues to be held hostage to fear of Serbias own making. Serbia has and continues to act out of fear born out of the willful distortion of its own history, rather than hope. Which is sad. But there may be hope.
No. Whatever can be said about Milosevic's policies, Servian fears are not distorted, they are very real. They are shown to be real by the treatment that Serbs got at the hands of other victorious powers, from Croatia in the early 90s to Kosovo recently.
 

Thac0man

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
6,482
Twitter
twit taa woo
MichaelR said:
So you are trying to prove that an entire people is indeed guilty. Quite a feat!
The is a differance between guilty and accountable. The absence of one does not preclude the other. Hence the term 'collective punishment' being applied to the Serbian nation is itself misplaced and nonsense.

MichaelR said:
No. Whatever can be said about Milosevic's policies, Servian fears are not distorted, they are very real. They are shown to be real by the treatment that Serbs got at the hands of other victorious powers, from Croatia in the early 90s to Kosovo recently.
The is bull of the higest order. What do you think was the justification for these conflicts? Have you ever bothered to inform yourself about what justifications the Serbs used? We have been over this on other threads. Time and again. Milosovic preyed upon Serbian fears and enhanced them through his promotion of one sided victimhood. Backed up by massively distorted history. Fear drove the Serbs to war and insured they got there on day one with the largest and best equiped arsenal. You would do well to look at what was happening in Yugoslavia prior to its breakup.

Just to be clear, you are contending that legitimate fear drove Serbia to try and ethnically cleanse all of Kosovo? Can any fear be considered rational that drives a race to rid itself of all traces of other enthnicities?
 

MichaelR

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Messages
2,048
Thac0man said:
MichaelR said:
No. Whatever can be said about Milosevic's policies, Servian fears are not distorted, they are very real. They are shown to be real by the treatment that Serbs got at the hands of other victorious powers, from Croatia in the early 90s to Kosovo recently.
The is bull of the higest order. What do you think was the justification for these conflicts? Have you ever bothered to inform yourself about what justifications the Serbs used? We have been over this on other threads. Time and again. Milosovic preyed upon Serbian fears and enhanced them through his promotion of one sided victimhood. Backed up by massively distorted history. Fear drove the Serbs to war and insured they got there on day one with the largest and best equiped arsenal. You would do well to look at what was happening in Yugoslavia prior to its breakup.

Just to be clear, you are contending that legitimate fear drove Serbia to try and ethnically cleanse all of Kosovo? Can any fear be considered rational that drives a race to rid itself of all traces of other enthnicities?
In fact, I was contending that *present* Serbian fears are legitimate and well founded.

But separately, I also contend that in the case of Kosovo, the alleged attempt at ethnic cleansing was a KLA+CIA fake. There was an attempt to suppress the KLA, and it was connected with a certain level of brutality, but the aim was not ethnic cleansing - it was, as usual in such cases, crushing the KLA and scaring people out of supporting it.

In a rather creative response, the KLA told people to march out over the border and and to claim that the Serbs made them. And they built an alliance with the USA to ensure that the claims are taken at face value. They got what they wanted. The US also got what they wanted - the Euro plunged and the dollar got several more years of dominance. I'm afraid they would want to use the current situation to destabilize Europe again; I hope they won't succeed this time.

This does not apply to Bosnia, where there were indeed war crimes. They were not perpetrated by Yugoslav national forces but by unruly paramilitaries. However, these paramilitaries had certain unofficial support from the Yugoslav leadership (compare the Arms Trial).
 

LTGuy

Active member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
118
Thac0man: what is wrong with you, man? "Don't judge, and yee will not be judged". Have you eyewitnessed all atrocities in Yugoslavia yourself, have you counted all dead bodies?

You don't know a thing what in reality happened there, as nobody does. And even if "Serbs" (many of them are not "Serbs", but Orthodox Bosnians to be precise) killed more - does it mean we weigh human lifes like pounds of meat? Even if Albanians killed a SINGLE innocent person (although we know it have been thousands) - it is a CRIME and no amount of apologies can return that single person to her family. So face it - ALL parties have blood on their hands, ALL parties are guilty. I see no reason to "reward" one side because it butchered LESS. There are only THREE innocent nations in Yugoslavia: Slovenes, Macedonians and Montenegrins who can claim a high moral ground. Neither Croats, nor Albanians, nor Bosniaks, nor Serbians are any better than anybody else. They all are GUILTY.
 

meriwether

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2004
Messages
12,591
but the aim was not ethnic cleansing - it was, as usual in such cases, crushing the KLA and scaring people out of supporting it.

In a rather creative response, the KLA told people to march out over the border and and to claim that the Serbs made them
What the Serbs needed was better PR.

This sort of message mix up has been happening with frightening regularity for the Serbs.

Like the time they tried to lay sewage pipes in Srebrenica and were accused of massacring 8000 people.
 
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
19,087
MichaelR said:
Thac0man said:
MichaelR said:
No. Whatever can be said about Milosevic's policies, Servian fears are not distorted, they are very real. They are shown to be real by the treatment that Serbs got at the hands of other victorious powers, from Croatia in the early 90s to Kosovo recently.
The is bull of the higest order. What do you think was the justification for these conflicts? Have you ever bothered to inform yourself about what justifications the Serbs used? We have been over this on other threads. Time and again. Milosovic preyed upon Serbian fears and enhanced them through his promotion of one sided victimhood. Backed up by massively distorted history. Fear drove the Serbs to war and insured they got there on day one with the largest and best equiped arsenal. You would do well to look at what was happening in Yugoslavia prior to its breakup.

Just to be clear, you are contending that legitimate fear drove Serbia to try and ethnically cleanse all of Kosovo? Can any fear be considered rational that drives a race to rid itself of all traces of other enthnicities?
In fact, I was contending that *present* Serbian fears are legitimate and well founded.

But separately, I also contend that in the case of Kosovo, the alleged attempt at ethnic cleansing was a KLA+CIA fake. There was an attempt to suppress the KLA, and it was connected with a certain level of brutality, but the aim was not ethnic cleansing - it was, as usual in such cases, crushing the KLA and scaring people out of supporting it.

In a rather creative response, the KLA told people to march out over the border and and to claim that the Serbs made them. And they built an alliance with the USA to ensure that the claims are taken at face value. They got what they wanted. The US also got what they wanted - the Euro plunged and the dollar got several more years of dominance. I'm afraid they would want to use the current situation to destabilize Europe again; I hope they won't succeed this time.

This does not apply to Bosnia, where there were indeed war crimes. They were not perpetrated by Yugoslav national forces but by unruly paramilitaries. However, these paramilitaries had certain unofficial support from the Yugoslav leadership (compare the Arms Trial).
Oh Dear God in Heaven! Where do you people come from?...
 
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
19,087
LTGuy said:
Thac0man: what is wrong with you, man? "Don't judge, and yee will not be judged". Have you eyewitnessed all atrocities in Yugoslavia yourself, have you counted all dead bodies?

You don't know a thing what in reality happened there, as nobody does. And even if "Serbs" (many of them are not "Serbs", but Orthodox Bosnians to be precise) killed more - does it mean we weigh human lifes like pounds of meat? Even if Albanians killed a SINGLE innocent person (although we know it have been thousands) - it is a CRIME and no amount of apologies can return that single person to her family. So face it - ALL parties have blood on their hands, ALL parties are guilty. I see no reason to "reward" one side because it butchered LESS. There are only THREE innocent nations in Yugoslavia: Slovenes, Macedonians and Montenegrins who can claim a high moral ground. Neither Croats, nor Albanians, nor Bosniaks, nor Serbians are any better than anybody else. They all are GUILTY.
The Croats behaved like murdering animals too. But to equate the Bosnians (who had a democratic secular republic to protect, unarmed, against the vile hordes of Serb and Croat murderers) or the Kosovars with the Serbs is just a DAMNED LIE! Your moral compass needs to be fixed somewhere, and quickly..
 

MichaelR

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Messages
2,048
toxic avenger said:
LTGuy said:
Thac0man: what is wrong with you, man? "Don't judge, and yee will not be judged". Have you eyewitnessed all atrocities in Yugoslavia yourself, have you counted all dead bodies?

You don't know a thing what in reality happened there, as nobody does. And even if "Serbs" (many of them are not "Serbs", but Orthodox Bosnians to be precise) killed more - does it mean we weigh human lifes like pounds of meat? Even if Albanians killed a SINGLE innocent person (although we know it have been thousands) - it is a CRIME and no amount of apologies can return that single person to her family. So face it - ALL parties have blood on their hands, ALL parties are guilty. I see no reason to "reward" one side because it butchered LESS. There are only THREE innocent nations in Yugoslavia: Slovenes, Macedonians and Montenegrins who can claim a high moral ground. Neither Croats, nor Albanians, nor Bosniaks, nor Serbians are any better than anybody else. They all are GUILTY.
The Croats behaved like murdering animals too. But to equate the Bosnians (who had a democratic secular republic to protect, unarmed, against the vile hordes of Serb and Croat murderers) or the Kosovars with the Serbs is just a DAMNED LIE! Your moral compass needs to be fixed somewhere, and quickly..
Won't argue about the Bosnians. But the Kosovo Liberation Army murdered, raped, and pillaged quite a lot. Especially after the NATO bombings.

Or for your "moral compass" the lost and broken Serb lives and the pillaged Serb cultural heritage are meaningless because they refused to toe the NATO line?
 

LTGuy

Active member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
118
toxic avenger said:
LTGuy said:
Thac0man: what is wrong with you, man? "Don't judge, and yee will not be judged". Have you eyewitnessed all atrocities in Yugoslavia yourself, have you counted all dead bodies?

You don't know a thing what in reality happened there, as nobody does. And even if "Serbs" (many of them are not "Serbs", but Orthodox Bosnians to be precise) killed more - does it mean we weigh human lifes like pounds of meat? Even if Albanians killed a SINGLE innocent person (although we know it have been thousands) - it is a CRIME and no amount of apologies can return that single person to her family. So face it - ALL parties have blood on their hands, ALL parties are guilty. I see no reason to "reward" one side because it butchered LESS. There are only THREE innocent nations in Yugoslavia: Slovenes, Macedonians and Montenegrins who can claim a high moral ground. Neither Croats, nor Albanians, nor Bosniaks, nor Serbians are any better than anybody else. They all are GUILTY.
The Croats behaved like murdering animals too. But to equate the Bosnians (who had a democratic secular republic to protect, unarmed, against the vile hordes of Serb and Croat murderers) or the Kosovars with the Serbs is just a DAMNED LIE! Your moral compass needs to be fixed somewhere, and quickly..
Wooly Bosniaks and Albanians agains SAVAGE ANIMALS Croats and Serbs. Hmmm, that sounds familliar! Sorry for intrusion of privacy, but what is the name of your God, toxic avenger? Do you start morning by shouting Allah akbar, incidentally? ;)
 
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
19,087
LTGuy said:
toxic avenger said:
LTGuy said:
Thac0man: what is wrong with you, man? "Don't judge, and yee will not be judged". Have you eyewitnessed all atrocities in Yugoslavia yourself, have you counted all dead bodies?

You don't know a thing what in reality happened there, as nobody does. And even if "Serbs" (many of them are not "Serbs", but Orthodox Bosnians to be precise) killed more - does it mean we weigh human lifes like pounds of meat? Even if Albanians killed a SINGLE innocent person (although we know it have been thousands) - it is a CRIME and no amount of apologies can return that single person to her family. So face it - ALL parties have blood on their hands, ALL parties are guilty. I see no reason to "reward" one side because it butchered LESS. There are only THREE innocent nations in Yugoslavia: Slovenes, Macedonians and Montenegrins who can claim a high moral ground. Neither Croats, nor Albanians, nor Bosniaks, nor Serbians are any better than anybody else. They all are GUILTY.
The Croats behaved like murdering animals too. But to equate the Bosnians (who had a democratic secular republic to protect, unarmed, against the vile hordes of Serb and Croat murderers) or the Kosovars with the Serbs is just a DAMNED LIE! Your moral compass needs to be fixed somewhere, and quickly..
Wooly Bosniaks and Albanians agains SAVAGE ANIMALS Croats and Serbs. Hmmm, that sounds familliar! Sorry for intrusion of privacy, but what is the name of your God, toxic avenger? Do you start morning by shouting Allah akbar, incidentally? ;)
I'm a practicing Catholic. It kind of taught me to dislike murderers, rapists, arsonists etc.
 

LTGuy

Active member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
118
toxic avenger said:
LTGuy said:
[quote="toxic avenger":3rjpe3ao]
LTGuy said:
Thac0man: what is wrong with you, man? "Don't judge, and yee will not be judged". Have you eyewitnessed all atrocities in Yugoslavia yourself, have you counted all dead bodies?

You don't know a thing what in reality happened there, as nobody does. And even if "Serbs" (many of them are not "Serbs", but Orthodox Bosnians to be precise) killed more - does it mean we weigh human lifes like pounds of meat? Even if Albanians killed a SINGLE innocent person (although we know it have been thousands) - it is a CRIME and no amount of apologies can return that single person to her family. So face it - ALL parties have blood on their hands, ALL parties are guilty. I see no reason to "reward" one side because it butchered LESS. There are only THREE innocent nations in Yugoslavia: Slovenes, Macedonians and Montenegrins who can claim a high moral ground. Neither Croats, nor Albanians, nor Bosniaks, nor Serbians are any better than anybody else. They all are GUILTY.
The Croats behaved like murdering animals too. But to equate the Bosnians (who had a democratic secular republic to protect, unarmed, against the vile hordes of Serb and Croat murderers) or the Kosovars with the Serbs is just a DAMNED LIE! Your moral compass needs to be fixed somewhere, and quickly..
Wooly Bosniaks and Albanians agains SAVAGE ANIMALS Croats and Serbs. Hmmm, that sounds familliar! Sorry for intrusion of privacy, but what is the name of your God, toxic avenger? Do you start morning by shouting Allah akbar, incidentally? ;)
I'm a practicing Catholic. It kind of taught me to dislike murderers, rapists, arsonists etc.[/quote:3rjpe3ao]

If that is the case, then why sudden love for those who raped nuns and torched monasteries standing there since 13th century. Explain yourself, I am confused! :?
 

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top