Sexual Freedom versus Puritanism

Emily Davison

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If a man puts a hand on your knee is that sexual assault. If he persists in pursuing you is that harrasmemt. Do we women need protection from this. Does that mean throwing out sexual liberation.

http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2018/01/09/nous-defendons-une-liberte-d-importuner-indispensable-a-la-liberte-sexuelle_5239134_3232.html

What do the men and women on p.ie think.

It cannot have escaped anyone’s notice the Weinstein effect. Do Hollywood women really not know what the casting couch is and how to avoid it. Or is this a case of Hollywood men in power abusing it.

There is a thought provoking backlash from, of course, the French. The difference between gallantry and abuse. To set the scene:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jan/09/catherine-deneuve-men-should-be-free-hit-on-women-harvey-weinstein-scandal
 
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Eire1976

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Then you get women writing that if the man is handsome, they want to be thrown on the floor and taken hard.

What gives?
 

Cruimh

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If a man puts a hand on your knee is that sexual assault. If he persists in pursuing you is that harrasmemt. Do we women need protection from this. Does that mean throwing out sexual liberation.

What do the men and women on p.ie think.

It cannot have escaped anyone’s notice the Weinstein effect. Do Hollywood women not really know what the casting couch is and how to avoid it. Or is this a case of Hollywood men in power abuses it.

There is a thought provoking backlash from of course, the French. The difference between Gallentry and abuse.
As usual there is a risk that the pendulum will swing too far. There is no doubt that male behaviour in the past was way over the line. (Donald Trump)

We need to find a happy balance - and a good start to that will be educating young men that any sign of rejection must be heeded.

Catherine Deneuve defends men's 'right to hit on' women

I get where the women are coming from, but (BBC report) the language used "hit on" is part of the problem - it is suggestive of sexual aggression and force. We have concepts that need to be ditched - that a woman might be "playing hard to get" so try harder if rejected.
 

Emily Davison

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Then you get women writing that if the man is handsome, they want to be thrown on the floor and taken hard.

What gives?

Why does the man have to be handsome? Yes I used to like Mills &Boon. Does that make me pre disposed to the wrong view of the matter.

Someone just now on Pat Kenny said if he hadn’t been brave enough to out his hand on a girls knee he wouldn’t be married now.
 

petaljam

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Then you get women writing that if the man is handsome, they want to be thrown on the floor and taken hard.

What gives?
The operative word there is "want" though. Some men seem to think that's an optional extra. Or else that it can be taken as read. It can't, except in some people's fantasies and porn.

But sure, if you are deciding between having sex with Harvey Weinstein or with George Clooney, it's not too hard to see which of them is at an advantage. Both would still need the woman's consent all the same.
 

Emily Davison

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As usual there is a risk that the pendulum will swing too far. There is no doubt that male behaviour in the past was way over the line. (Donald Trump)

We need to find a happy balance - and a good start to that will be educating young men that any sign of rejection must be heeded.

Catherine Deneuve defends men's 'right to hit on' women

I get where the women are coming from, but (BBC report) the language used "hit on" is part of the problem - it is suggestive of sexual aggression and force. We have concepts that need to be ditched - that a woman might be "playing hard to get" so try harder if rejected.

I think we can all agree that Trump is offensive. But, some women seem to not mind, personally I did not understand that, but it seems to be true nevertheless. He’s so gross and obnoxious in my view that it’s difficult to understand.

About educating men, do men not know what no is, it’s not my experience. But it’s also my experience that men need to be persistent. You mention any sign of rejection, us women can play hard to get, or be hard to get and need pursuing. Is that not how it works. Though one does wonder sometimes who is pursuing who.
 
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silverharp

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what we are seeing now is a moral panic, at some stage it will blow over maybe in 5 or 10 years. It might get more extreme, watch out from companies like google to prevent a women being alone with men in the workplace, or possibly parents like myself advising our sons to not date girls on campus for risk of having your education ruined, don't date in the workplace for same reasons.
It kind of depends how the law goes, there is a push to lower evidence standards and up conviction rates which wont help
 

Emily Davison

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The operative word there is "want" though. Some men seem to think that's an optional extra. Or else that it can be taken as read. It can't, except in some people's fantasies and porn.

But sure, if you are deciding between having sex with Harvey Weinstein or with George Clooney, it's not too hard to see which of them is at an advantage. Both would still need the woman's consent all the same.

George might look good but might be an idiot. Weinstein, who is particularly bad looking might be charming. So I’m not sure that there is always a clear cut advantage there unless on the superficial first glance.
 

Emily Davison

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It is a two way street - not all women are perfect and they need to consider what they say.

About the word hit on. Is that not correct. Can we not say it. Or what can we call it.
 

Wascurito

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Then you get women writing that if the man is handsome, they want to be thrown on the floor and taken hard.

What gives?
You might be watching too much porn. Anyway, just because one woman wants something doesn't mean they all will. If the person being importuné(e) says no, that means no.
 

petaljam

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George might look good but might be an idiot. Weinstein, who is particularly bad looking might be charming. So I’m not sure that there is always a clear cut advantage there unless on the superficial first glance.
Oh absolutely, but it's just a general comment : women, like men, are susceptible to good looks. That doesn't mean it's the only factor, but in the Mills and Boons "take me now" kind of scenario that I assumed was being referred to, I think physical attraction is the main element. A lot of that is fantasy of course. Male and female.

Basically, the frequency with which that actually happens IRL is probably massively exaggerated in M&B et al.
 

Wascurito

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The letter is shorter than I expected and doesn't seem to deal with the complex issue of economic power. If a boss "hits on" an employee, there is the implicit (sometimes explicit) threat that failure to cooperate with the advances could damage the employee's career.
 

CatullusV

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It's a difficult call to make.

The line is blurred. Practically every physical relationship may involve an approach which has the potential to be considered so undesired as to be an assault.

To add another layer of complexity, some people use feigned distaste od a potential partner in order to present a challenge.

No means no is the absolute rule in the end.
 

Emily Davison

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Oh absolutely, but it's just a general comment : women, like men, are susceptible to good looks. That doesn't mean it's the only factor, but in the Mills and Boons "take me now" kind of scenario that I assumed was being referred to, I think physical attraction is the main element. A lot of that is fantasy of course. Male and female.

Basically, the frequency with which that actually happens IRL is probably massively exaggerated in M&B et al.

What do you think of the comment on Catherine Deneuve by a woman who has said Weinstein raped her. ‘interiorised misogyny’

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/09/movies/catherine-deneuve-and-others-denounce-the-metoo-movement.html
 

Emily Davison

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The letter is shorter than I expected and doesn't seem to deal with the complex issue of economic power. If a boss "hits on" an employee, there is the implicit (sometimes explicit) threat that failure to cooperate with the advances could damage the employee's career.
That’s clearly abuse. It’s not the same as a man chatting up or pursuing a woman in a different setting. Many companies have clear cut policies though, and most men know well enough to keep it out of the workplace.
 

silverharp

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Good question. Hit on has undertones of violence and suggests an attempt to dominate and bully. Flirt. Make eyes at. Dally. Court.
woo :rolleyes:
 

Cruimh

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I think we can all agree that Trump is offensive. But, some women seem to not mind, personally I did not understand that, but it seems to be true nevertheless. He’s so gross and obnoxious in my view that it’s difficult to understand.

About educating men, do men not know what no is, it’s not my experience. But it’s also my experience that men need to be persistent. You mention any sign of rejection, us women can play hard to get, or be hard to get and need pursuing. Is that not how it works. Though one dies wonder sometimes who is pursuing who.
What I meant about Trump was that his attitude in the past illustrated the worst kind of behaviour - not putting a hand on knees, not pinching a bottom, but 'grab them by the pussy'.
 

Emily Davison

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Good question. Hit on has undertones of violence and suggests an attempt to dominate and bully. Flirt. Make eyes at. Dally. Court.
I don’t think ‘hit on’ suggests violence at all. But it’s probably old fashioned. And flirting is not the same, it’s not strong enough.

What is the term of today for a man pursuing a woman. And is that very idea or concept, itself old fashioned. Have we reached a point where the woman dies the pursuing.

Court is like way old. Never heard of Dally ! Make eyes at makes me smile. Been too long out of the ‘game’.
 


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