Should animal sacrifice in the west get your goat?

silverharp

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a news piece about Eid animal sacrifices in Canada which is actually legal , apparently some examples were lambs having their heads burned off while still alive. Peta takes no interest in this which seems odd and instead prefer to hassle restaurant owners whole business name includes bacon and eggs




[video=youtube;ZyZ4g1c7wig]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyZ4g1c7wig[/video]


example in Canada

[video=youtube;3xRf0hLVPvY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xRf0hLVPvY[/video]


example of slaughtering of animals on an Austrian farm where animals were allowed to bleed out for several minutes

Farmer finds nearly 80 sheep ritually slaughtered in his field | The Independent

Farmer finds nearly 80 sheep ritually slaughtered in his field

An unnamed farmer in the Styria region said he had lent his field to a friend for a month so 131 sheep could graze.

But the friend did not tell him the sheep were being bred to be sacrificed as part of Islamic Eid al-Adha or the Feast of Sacrifice.

During the festival, which comes in the middle of the Haji, Muslims slaughter sheep, goats or cows to commemorate the day they believe Abraham, known as Ibrahim to Muslims, was told by God to sacrifice his son but was eventually allowed to kill a sheep instead.
 


raspberry tea

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So much for animal rights social justice ''warriors'' they are full of the proverbial,for they are nowhere to be seen on the muslim issue....
 

Boy M5

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No.
 

Catalpast

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Looks like a pretty straight forward quick kill TBH @2.28

Next time anyone is in a butchers shop they may ask themselves how all that meat arrived there??
 

Super Caley

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Substituting human sacrifice with animal sacrifice was probably an important milestone in human development. But of course such substitution could only occur if we had already evolved a cognitive bias which would allow us to transfer some of our feelings towards fellow humans, on to animals.... but inevitably, with such transference comes a tendency to the fallacious “animal rights” thinking which mistakenly assumes that animals experience the world as we do, whereas if you think about it, there is little to suggest that animals experience the world (i.e. experience consciousness) at all.

Anyway, Christianity of course did away with all such sacrifices (Human or animal). TBH I hadn’t realised the Muslims still went in for that sort of thing. I had (erroneously it would appear) the idea that, being Abrahamic monotheists, that they too had abandoned animal sacrifice.

Still, compared with some of the other things Islam brings to the west, a bit of inefficient slaughtering of a few sheep seems fairly harmless.
 

Super Caley

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As I suspected (having googled the matter) I don't think Islam does practice sacrifice as such, or at least not in the crude appeasing the God(s) variety.

http://www.islamawareness.net/Hajj/sacrafice.html

This is not surprising in view of it being a close relative of Judaism and Christianity. This Eid sacrifice thing, although referred to as "sacrifice", seems to be more animal slaughter (for meat) done according to a traditional ritual. All the same from the point of view of the animal of course (a point of view which I don't think exists), but nonetheless it is a ritual, not a sacrifice.


Maybe I should get out more.
 

silverharp

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As I suspected (having googled the matter) I don't think Islam does practice sacrifice as such, or at least not in the crude appeasing the God(s) variety.

The Concept of Animal Sacrifice in Islam

This is not surprising in view of it being a close relative of Judaism and Christianity. This Eid sacrifice thing, although referred to as "sacrifice", seems to be more animal slaughter (for meat) done according to a traditional ritual. All the same from the point of view of the animal of course (a point of view which I don't think exists), but nonetheless it is a ritual, not a sacrifice.


Maybe I should get out more.
I agree that ritual might be a closer term but doesn't matter , understanding the internal reasoning makes no odds , if they wanted to "sacrifice" a bag of cola bottles nobody would care. On the face of it, its whether there is an animal welfare issue and these practices if carried out in a field maybe by amateurs. Secondly as kids seem to be around all this possibly reinforcing violence associated with religion?
 

Karloff

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Animal welfare and child welfare issues must trump cultural concerns in Western countries, we went through an enlightenment for a reason - it didn't do nearly as much as it should have but it is what we have to work with.

but inevitably, with such transference comes a tendency to the fallacious “animal rights” thinking which mistakenly assumes that animals experience the world as we do, whereas if you think about it, there is little to suggest that animals experience the world (i.e. experience consciousness) at all.
You must be some kind of God to know what an animal experiences. There is a great body of evidence to suggest animals feel a great deal, in some senses more than we do.

You are possibly in reality someone who enjoys killing animals (maybe as a hunter) and you need a justification for that so handily your justification is that animals feel nothing or do not matter (as your last line above suggests).

Necessity is the mother of invention and mankind invented the belief of animals not feeling the world around them (and then try to pass it off as a pseudoscience) to justify doing wicked things to them.
 

autiemom

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Looks like a pretty straight forward quick kill TBH @2.28

Next time anyone is in a butchers shop they may ask themselves how all that meat arrived there??
Most Local butchers unless practicing halal will butcher meat humanely, stunned and killed. Halal or ritual or whatever you wish to call it is certainly NOT humane, we can make the choice...... mostly, however some supermarkets stock or buy certified halal products without letting customers know, so its a bit insidious TBH. I mean Cadbury chocolate, bassets sweets frys chocolate all halal certified. some meats in Tesco, aldi lidl some state it some don't. fast food joint nando's all halal, pizza express all halal. It costs to have your product certified, and the money goes to some reportedly dodgy groups. I NEVER buy halal.
 

Bea C

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Most Local butchers unless practicing halal will butcher meat humanely, stunned and killed. Halal or ritual or whatever you wish to call it is certainly NOT humane, we can make the choice...... mostly, however some supermarkets stock or buy certified halal products without letting customers know, so its a bit insidious TBH. I mean Cadbury chocolate, bassets sweets frys chocolate all halal certified. some meats in Tesco, aldi lidl some state it some don't. fast food joint nando's all halal, pizza express all halal. It costs to have your product certified, and the money goes to some reportedly dodgy groups. I NEVER buy halal.
Does the packaging say that! :roll:
 
D

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Most Local butchers unless practicing halal will butcher meat humanely, stunned and killed. Halal or ritual or whatever you wish to call it is certainly NOT humane, we can make the choice...... mostly, however some supermarkets stock or buy certified halal products without letting customers know, so its a bit insidious TBH. I mean Cadbury chocolate, bassets sweets frys chocolate all halal certified. some meats in Tesco, aldi lidl some state it some don't. fast food joint nando's all halal, pizza express all halal. It costs to have your product certified, and the money goes to some reportedly dodgy groups. I NEVER buy halal.
There's nothing, NOTHING humane about the industrial slaughter of animals. They are slaves. Think about that next time you're tucking into your T bone.

I've more respect for hunters who track and kill animals for food. At least the animal is dying free.
 

willow68

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There's nothing, NOTHING humane about the industrial slaughter of animals. They are slaves. Think about that next time you're tucking into your T bone.

I've more respect for hunters who track and kill animals for food. At least the animal is dying free.
As a lifelong vegetarian I agree with you wholeheartedly.
 

Super Caley

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Animal welfare and child welfare issues must trump cultural concerns in Western countries, we went through an enlightenment for a reason - it didn't do nearly as much as it should have but it is what we have to work with.



You must be some kind of God to know what an animal experiences. There is a great body of evidence to suggest animals feel a great deal, in some senses more than we do.

You are possibly in reality someone who enjoys killing animals (maybe as a hunter) and you need a justification for that so handily your justification is that animals feel nothing or do not matter (as your last line above suggests).

Necessity is the mother of invention and mankind invented the belief of animals not feeling the world around them (and then try to pass it off as a pseudoscience) to justify doing wicked things to them.


There is indeed a body of evidence which indicates that physiological processes which are strongly linked to reported subjective human experiences, are virtually indistinguishable from processes which can be demonstrated in animal nervous systems, (firing of certain pain neurones etc).
This does not imply however that the phenomenological human experience is replicated in animals. Indeed, strictly speaking I can only be sure that I alone experience anything. Science has no access to individual phenomenological experience, and never will. However, as the other humans I interact with appear to think and behave in a way remarkably similar to myself, it seems reasonable to reject solipsism and instead to infer that other humans also experience the world pretty much as I do.

Animal behaviours on the other hand seem to be qualitatively different to human. There is a lack of necessity. Science is well able to explain the entire range of animal behaviours without resorting to the existence of animal consciousness.

BTW, I would nevertheless subscribe to a cautionary principle, in that as I cannot definitively rule out animal awareness, I do not approve of wanton / unnecessary cruelty to animals, and contrary to your assertion, I have never been hunting in my life. However, for the reasons outlined above, I consider that our ethical duties to humans should not be diluted with some notion that we also have a similar duty of care to animals. Mixing “child welfare” with “animal welfare” is, IMO, obscene. (And would certainly agree with you in that the former at least should trump cultural concerns)
 

autiemom

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Does the packaging say that! :roll:
Does Cadbury advertise their halal status? I never buy it but I have a link I'm gonna post of the certified products. I think the fact, that there is little or no documented clarification as to where the cert money goes says more, I could link to several uk and usa based investigations but it would be moot, as the process is somewhat guarded, added to that the recent rte findings of dubious funding of Irelands largest mosque clonskeah, I have to say I'm not going to buy halal in the near future.link is from the Eat Halal
Eat Halal and healthy website




This Blog Linked From Here The Web http://www.eathalal.ca/2010/10/cadburys-full-list-uk-and-ireland-2010.html


This Blog


Linked From Here


The Web


Wednesday, October 6, 2010CADBURY's FULL LIST (UK and IRELAND - 2010-201)
**This list is for United Kingdom and Ireland Customers only.. Others please check and confirm...


CADBURY's FULL LIST UK and IRELAND - 2010-2011


BUBBALOO BLUEBERRY
BUBBALOO GREEN APPLE
BUBBILICIOUS ALL VARIETIES - ADAMS
ASSORTED TOFFEES - BASSETTS
BUTTERMINTS
CHERRY DROPS - BASSETTS
EVERTON MINTS - BASSETTS
FRUIT BONBONS - BASSETTS
MINT CREAMS - BASSETTS
MINT FAVOURITES (Murray mints, Murray buttermints, Everton, Mint toffees) - BASSETTS
MURRAY MINTS - BASSETTS
PEAR DROPS - BASSETTS
SHERBET LEMONS - BASSETTS
TOFFEE AND FUDGE FAVOURITES - BASSETTS
TOFFEE BONBONS - BASSETTS
BOOST GLUCOSE - CADBURY
BOURNVILLE - CADBURY
BOURNVILLE 1848 - CADBURY
BRUNCH BAR CRANBERRY AND ORANGE - CADBURY
BRUNCH BAR HAZELNUT - CADBURY
BRUNCH BAR RAISIN - CADBURY
BUTTONS - CADBURY
CHOCOLATE ECLAIRS - CADBURY
CHOMP - CADBURY
COCOA - CADBURY
CREAMY WHITE BUTTONS - CADBURY
CREME EGG - CADBURY
CRUNCHIE - CADBURY
CURLY WURLY - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK ADVENT CALENDAR - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK BUBBLY - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK CARAMEL EGG - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK CARAMEL FREDDO - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK CARAMEL TREE DECORATIONS - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK COINS - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK FREDDO - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK FRUIT AND NUT - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK MINIATURES (BAGS) - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK MINIATURES (SLOT MACHINE) - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK SMALL - CADBURY


DAIRY MILK TREE NOVELTIES - CADBURY CADBURY
DAIRY MILK TURKISH - CADBURY CADBURY
DAIRY MILK WHOLENUT - CADBURY CADBURY
DAIRY MILK WITH CARAMEL - CADBURY CADBURY
DAIRY MILK WITH CRUNCHIE - CADBURY CADBURY
DOUBLE DECKER - CADBURY CADBURY
DREAM - CADBURY CADBURY
DRINKING CHOCOLATE - CADBURY CADBURY
FLAKE / 99 FLAKE - CADBURY CADBURY
FLAKE DIPPED - CADBURY CADBURY
FLAKE MOMENTS - CADBURY CADBURY
FLAKE PRALINE - CADBURY CADBURY
FUDGE - CADBURY CADBURY
HEROES ASSORTMENT - CADBURY
HIGHLIGHTS ALL VARIETIES
HOT CHOCOLATE INSTANT - CADBURY
INSTANT HOT MOCHA - CADBURY
MILK TRAY - CADBURY
MINI CARAMEL EGG - CADBURY
MINI CREME EGG - CADBURY
MINI EGGS - CADBURY
MISSHAPES - CADBURY
PICNIC - CADBURY
ROSES ASSORTMENT - CADBURY
SNACK SANDWICH - CADBURY (Alcoholic Flavourings)
SNACK SHORTCAKE - CADBURY
SNACK WAFER - CADBURY
SNAPS CARAMEL CRUNCH - CADBURY
SNAPS MINT - CADBURY
SNAPS ORANGE - CADBURY
SNAPS ORIGINAL - CADBURY
STARBAR - CADBURY
TIMEOUT - CADBURY
TWIRL - CADBURY
PEPPERMINT CREAM - FRY'S
TURKISH DELIGHT - FRY'S
BLACKCURRANT MEDICATED - HALLS
CHERRY SUGAR FREE - HALLS
EXTRA STRONG MENTHO-LYPTUS medicated - HALLS
ORIGINAL MEDICATED SUGAR FREE - HALLS
ORIGINAL MENTHO-LYPTUS medicated - HALLS
SOOTHERS ALL VARIETIES - HALLS
SOFT FRUITS - TREBOR
SOFT MINTS SPEARMINT - TREBOR
SOFT MINTS PEPPERMINT - TREBOR
TREBOR GUMS - BOTH FLAVOURS
TRIDENT SOFT GUMS - ALL FLAVOURS
BITESIZE CLUSTERS
BITESIZE PEANUTS
BITESIZE RAISINS
BITESIZE CRUNCHIE ROCKS
BITESIZE CARAMEL NIBBLES
KOKO
CDM MAGICAL ADVENT CALENDAR
MAGICAL ELVES
SNOW BITES
CDM SNOWMAN
SELECTION BOX RANGE
CREME EGG TWISTED
WISPA
WISPA GOLD
BOURNVILLE ORANGE
BOURNVILLE OLD JAMAICA
FRYS ORANGE CREAM
FRYS CHOCOLATE CREAM
CADBURY WISHES
CDM BLISS BAR
CDM BAR OF PLENTY - ALL VARIETIES
CADBURY CHALLENGE BAR
CADBURY SCREME EGG
CADBURY DEAD HEADS

Cadbury IRELAND 2010
The Following Products are all Halaal
THEY ARE ONLY AVAILABLE FOR SALE IN IRELAND
MORO
DAIRY MILK
DAIRY MILK FRUIT & NUT
DAIRY MILK WHOLENUT
DAIRY MILK MINT CRISP
DAIRY MILK GOLDEN CRISP
DAIRY MILK TIFFIN BAR
DAIRY MILK TURKISH
DAIRY MILK CARAMELLO
 

autiemom

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608
There's nothing, NOTHING humane about the industrial slaughter of animals. They are slaves. Think about that next time you're tucking into your T bone.

I've more respect for hunters who track and kill animals for food. At least the animal is dying free.
Given the two options I will opt for stun and slaughter over halal. I'm a meat eater and will always be, although it has to be said if I HAD to kill and prep my own meat I would gladly do that too.
 

Ardillaun

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Any carnivore getting indignant about this practice needs to visit an abbatoir. Things don't always go to plan in those places and such mishaps don't appear on the burger box. And who's to say that exsanguination is such a dreadful way to go? How many surveys of dying sheep went into this thread? The vegans may have a point; the rest of us not so much.
 

Felixness

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Absolutely NO to animal sacrifice. I don't eat meat, it's a personal choice and the reason I mention it is because quite often there are animal byproducts in things you wouldn't expect and at least it's easier these days to find good products that aren't tested on animals as well as fake leather alternatives for shoes/boots. I don't have a problem with people eating meat but people generally eat too much meat and don't like to think where it came from or how the animals or birds were treated. Over the years some horrendous footage has been filmed in slaughter houses and yes animals do feel pain and fear and yes, animals do scream.
 

Bea C

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Does Cadbury advertise their halal status? I never buy it but I have a link I'm gonna post of the certified products. I think the fact, that there is little or no documented clarification as to where the cert money goes says more, I could link to several uk and usa based investigations but it would be moot, as the process is somewhat guarded, added to that the recent rte findings of dubious funding of Irelands largest mosque clonskeah, I have to say I'm not going to buy halal in the near future.link is from the Eat Halal
Eat Halal and healthy website




This Blog Linked From Here The Web CADBURY's FULL LIST (UK and IRELAND - 2010-201) | Eat Halal


This Blog


Linked From Here


The Web


Wednesday, October 6, 2010CADBURY's FULL LIST (UK and IRELAND - 2010-201)
**This list is for United Kingdom and Ireland Customers only.. Others please check and confirm...


CADBURY's FULL LIST UK and IRELAND - 2010-2011


BUBBALOO BLUEBERRY
BUBBALOO GREEN APPLE
BUBBILICIOUS ALL VARIETIES - ADAMS
ASSORTED TOFFEES - BASSETTS
BUTTERMINTS
CHERRY DROPS - BASSETTS
EVERTON MINTS - BASSETTS
FRUIT BONBONS - BASSETTS
MINT CREAMS - BASSETTS
MINT FAVOURITES (Murray mints, Murray buttermints, Everton, Mint toffees) - BASSETTS
MURRAY MINTS - BASSETTS
PEAR DROPS - BASSETTS
SHERBET LEMONS - BASSETTS
TOFFEE AND FUDGE FAVOURITES - BASSETTS
TOFFEE BONBONS - BASSETTS
BOOST GLUCOSE - CADBURY
BOURNVILLE - CADBURY
BOURNVILLE 1848 - CADBURY
BRUNCH BAR CRANBERRY AND ORANGE - CADBURY
BRUNCH BAR HAZELNUT - CADBURY
BRUNCH BAR RAISIN - CADBURY
BUTTONS - CADBURY
CHOCOLATE ECLAIRS - CADBURY
CHOMP - CADBURY
COCOA - CADBURY
CREAMY WHITE BUTTONS - CADBURY
CREME EGG - CADBURY
CRUNCHIE - CADBURY
CURLY WURLY - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK ADVENT CALENDAR - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK BUBBLY - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK CARAMEL EGG - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK CARAMEL FREDDO - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK CARAMEL TREE DECORATIONS - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK COINS - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK FREDDO - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK FRUIT AND NUT - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK MINIATURES (BAGS) - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK MINIATURES (SLOT MACHINE) - CADBURY
DAIRY MILK SMALL - CADBURY


DAIRY MILK TREE NOVELTIES - CADBURY CADBURY
DAIRY MILK TURKISH - CADBURY CADBURY
DAIRY MILK WHOLENUT - CADBURY CADBURY
DAIRY MILK WITH CARAMEL - CADBURY CADBURY
DAIRY MILK WITH CRUNCHIE - CADBURY CADBURY
DOUBLE DECKER - CADBURY CADBURY
DREAM - CADBURY CADBURY
DRINKING CHOCOLATE - CADBURY CADBURY
FLAKE / 99 FLAKE - CADBURY CADBURY
FLAKE DIPPED - CADBURY CADBURY
FLAKE MOMENTS - CADBURY CADBURY
FLAKE PRALINE - CADBURY CADBURY
FUDGE - CADBURY CADBURY
HEROES ASSORTMENT - CADBURY
HIGHLIGHTS ALL VARIETIES
HOT CHOCOLATE INSTANT - CADBURY
INSTANT HOT MOCHA - CADBURY
MILK TRAY - CADBURY
MINI CARAMEL EGG - CADBURY
MINI CREME EGG - CADBURY
MINI EGGS - CADBURY
MISSHAPES - CADBURY
PICNIC - CADBURY
ROSES ASSORTMENT - CADBURY
SNACK SANDWICH - CADBURY (Alcoholic Flavourings)
SNACK SHORTCAKE - CADBURY
SNACK WAFER - CADBURY
SNAPS CARAMEL CRUNCH - CADBURY
SNAPS MINT - CADBURY
SNAPS ORANGE - CADBURY
SNAPS ORIGINAL - CADBURY
STARBAR - CADBURY
TIMEOUT - CADBURY
TWIRL - CADBURY
PEPPERMINT CREAM - FRY'S
TURKISH DELIGHT - FRY'S
BLACKCURRANT MEDICATED - HALLS
CHERRY SUGAR FREE - HALLS
EXTRA STRONG MENTHO-LYPTUS medicated - HALLS
ORIGINAL MEDICATED SUGAR FREE - HALLS
ORIGINAL MENTHO-LYPTUS medicated - HALLS
SOOTHERS ALL VARIETIES - HALLS
SOFT FRUITS - TREBOR
SOFT MINTS SPEARMINT - TREBOR
SOFT MINTS PEPPERMINT - TREBOR
TREBOR GUMS - BOTH FLAVOURS
TRIDENT SOFT GUMS - ALL FLAVOURS
BITESIZE CLUSTERS
BITESIZE PEANUTS
BITESIZE RAISINS
BITESIZE CRUNCHIE ROCKS
BITESIZE CARAMEL NIBBLES
KOKO
CDM MAGICAL ADVENT CALENDAR
MAGICAL ELVES
SNOW BITES
CDM SNOWMAN
SELECTION BOX RANGE
CREME EGG TWISTED
WISPA
WISPA GOLD
BOURNVILLE ORANGE
BOURNVILLE OLD JAMAICA
FRYS ORANGE CREAM
FRYS CHOCOLATE CREAM
CADBURY WISHES
CDM BLISS BAR
CDM BAR OF PLENTY - ALL VARIETIES
CADBURY CHALLENGE BAR
CADBURY SCREME EGG
CADBURY DEAD HEADS

Cadbury IRELAND 2010
The Following Products are all Halaal
THEY ARE ONLY AVAILABLE FOR SALE IN IRELAND
MORO
DAIRY MILK
DAIRY MILK FRUIT & NUT
DAIRY MILK WHOLENUT
DAIRY MILK MINT CRISP
DAIRY MILK GOLDEN CRISP
DAIRY MILK TIFFIN BAR
DAIRY MILK TURKISH
DAIRY MILK CARAMELLO
F**k sake.
I'd have thought chocolate would be too sinfully-enjoyable for consumption to be allowed, actually?
 

autiemom

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Joined
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Messages
608
Any carnivore getting indignant about this practice needs to visit an abbatoir. Things don't always go to plan in those places and such mishaps don't appear on the burger box. And who's to say that exsanguination is such a dreadful way to go? How many surveys of dying sheep went into this thread? The vegans may have a point; the rest of us not so much.
have a look at some non stun halal abattoirs in England on youtube, as I suppose any slaughterhouse, neither is pretty but cutting the throat of a struggling crying animal as opposed to a dead stunned one HAS to be worse surely. WARNING VIDEO IS VERY GRAPHIC Undercover: inside a UK non-stun slaughterhouse, Bowood Yorkshire Lamb
 


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