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Should FF FG Lab SF deny us a Dail vote on abortion?


Big Brother

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Coalition hoping to get abortion bill passed without vote - Independent.ie

This is NOT a thread about the substantive issue of abortion so please Mr. Moderator don't close down this thread.

This is a thread about whether a vote should occur in the Dáil on whatever final abortion legislation materialises.

Should our TDs be honest & declar where they stand?

Or should they band together to get this through the Dail without having to say where they stood?

My view: If our Dail cannot debate and vote on issues as sensitive as this then there seems little point in voting....we might as well just outsource our decision making entirely.

Oh wait, we already have.....
 
Last edited:


Burnout

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I have a life.
Why can we not have a referendum? God knows we have refs on a lot of items recently. If they got the incorrect answer shur they will just have us do it again till they get the answer they want.

But we are losing our say in so much of what goes on here it's just another show of arrogance. Whats wrong with having the people say and voting how they feel or think on the subject.
 
D

Deleted member 17573

Coalition hoping to get abortion bill passed without vote - Independent.ie

This is NOT a thread about the substantive issue of abortion so please Mr. Moderator don't close down this thread.

This is a thread about whether a vote should occur in the Dáil on whatever final abortion legislation materialises.

Should our TDs be honest & declar where they stand?

Or should they band together to guillotine this through to prevent them having to say they voted one way or another?

My view: If our Dail cannot debate and vote on issues as sensitive as this then there seems little point in voting....we might as well just outsource our decision making entirely.

Oh wait, we already have.....
Forcing politicians to declare heir position is exactly what YD & Co. want because it would enable them to target individual politicians in rural areas. They should band together and make it a non-issue for the next GE.
 

Cato

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Why can we not have a referendum? God knows we have refs on a lot of items recently. If they got the incorrect answer shur they will just have us do it again till they get the answer they want.

But we are losing our say in so much of what goes on here it's just another show of arrogance. Whats wrong with have the people saying and voting how they feel.
Aye, it could be referred to the People under Article 27.
 

borntorum

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Aye, it could be referred to the People under Article 27.
I would hope that the Bill, if passed as currently stands, would be referred to the Supreme Court under A 26.

I wouldn't be too confident though, what with the current incumbent in the Phoenix House
 

Heligoland

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"Sources" and "A senior government source" are the only attributions given in that article.



How certain are you that these are not just voices in Fionnan Sheahan's head?
 

Big Brother

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Aye, it could be referred to the People under Article 27.
Exactly.

I mean they're having referenda on everything from Seanad abolition to state inquiries.

The 2002 referendum outcome is unclear: By narrowest of margins a proposal to overturn xcase was defeated. But in addition to the 49.5% who voted for it at least 10% voted against it because they didn't think it went far enough.

The Red C poll last December shows that despite the "we have moved on" narrative 63% opposed legislation for suicide, a finding replicated by a Millward Brown poll in March

So a majority don't support legilsation for suicide

But even if a minority opposed such legislation - and at least 40% do oppose it - Dail parties clubbing together to deny a vote would be wrong.

The Dail is supposed to reflect the diversity of the people.

Not Stalinist consensus.
 

Big Brother

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"Sources" and "A senior government source" are the only attributions given in that article.



How certain are you that these are not just voices in Fionnan Sheahan's head?
In fairness Fionnuan is reasonably clued in and I don't think he'd make this stuff up.

And be honest, would you put it past politicians to get themselves off hook by denying a vote?
 

LamportsEdge

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How much of a vote was there on the bank guarantee? Or Lenihan's special powers? Or even debate in the chamber?

On this issue we have referendum results and a supreme court deliberation on the matter. The problem has not been that there has been no debate, consultation with the country and judicial review.

The problem has been that the Dail has kicked the can on this for twenty years. The Dail should get the hell on with it and do as they have been told.
 

Big Brother

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How much of a vote was there on the bank guarantee? Or Lenihan's special powers? Or even debate in the chamber?

On this issue we have referendum results and a supreme court deliberation on the matter. The problem has not been that there has been no debate, consultation with the country and judicial review.

The problem has been that the Dail has kicked the can on this for twenty years. The Dail should get the hell on with it and do as they have been told.
Lack of debate on entirely different topics doesn't justify lack of debate on abortion

Agree they shouldn't kick can down road.

But Savita died of hospital screw ups not law. And 1992 xcse ruling overturned subsequently by a 1994 HC ruling and 2001 referendum

So at the very least we should have a Dail debate

And if we're trapsing to the polls anyway on Seanaid abolition sure we might as well do same on abortion this coming September.

You can't vote often enough when the right to life is at stake.
 

sideline2

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I think there should absolutely be a referendum and haven't heard a good reason (or any, come to think of it) why it's not being decided by referendum. From what I've read and heard, the Pro-Life lobby is sitting on the doorstep of every FG TD in the country and telling them that they won't be elected again if they vote this in. If nothing else, a referendum would allow the government to get on with their job without Pro-Life screaming at them across every available medium every hour of the day and night.
 

Sync

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All legislation should be voted on in the house with records of who voted which way, regardless of the topic.
 

Big Brother

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All legislation should be voted on in the house with records of who voted which way, regardless of the topic.
Agreed.

Even if its something absolutely obvious like voting for more sunshine for instance.
 

devnull

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...
The Red C poll last December shows that despite the "we have moved on" narrative 63% opposed legislation for suicide, ...
No, it doesn't.

RedC gave a warning in big red letters about the interpretation of that question:
"Asked as one question, these statements cannot be taken out of context of the whole. Thus the level of support indicates the relative support for each possible position"
http://redcresearch.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/SBP-2nd-Dec-2012-Poll-Report.pdf
Interviewees were allowed to indicate support for multiple options:
A referendum to remove suicide, but leave the other criteria: 63%
Legislation for the X-Case: 85%
A referendum to extend the X-case criteria to include rape and the mother's health: 82%
A referendum to allow abortion when requested: 36%

The most popular options are to either legislate for the X-Case or hold a referendum to liberalise the criteria a bit further.

RedC held another poll shortly afterwards that asked people what their preferred option was:
RedC » Blog Archive » Majority Support Govt. Position on Abortion - Research & Marketing Ltd
8% wanted a complete ban on abortion
26% wanted the criteria to be where the life of the mother was in danger, excluding suicide
35% supported the X-Case criteria
29% supported abortion whenever a woman requested it.

That's 64% of people whose preferred criteria for abortion includes suicide.
 

Lain2016

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Why can we not have a referendum? God knows we have refs on a lot of items recently. If they got the incorrect answer shur they will just have us do it again till they get the answer they want.

But we are losing our say in so much of what goes on here it's just another show of arrogance. Whats wrong with having the people say and voting how they feel or think on the subject.
The little people (the ones who end up paying when the big money people fukk up) have been getting the answer wrong of late so I think we are moving to a more "progressive" position...one where the politicians and their advisers tell us what is best for us...we'll like it much better, honestly :rolleyes:
 

LamportsEdge

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The desperate attempts at re-writing referendum results and blatant attempts at dishonesty in representing polls is extraordinary when you think of it.

These people are fanatics directed by elderly male celibates in frocks. Once you go down that road I suppose inventing yet another reality is easy.
 

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