Should Irish be optional for the Leaving Certificate?

DJP

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This issue has been discussed on numerous threads, but it has been a long time since the issue has been given its own thread.

I was passionately in favour of the status quo in relation to it staying required.

However, I have come to believe that the issue only deflects attention away from the FF-led Govt. in relation to the other huge issues in relation to an Ghaeilge. Plus I feel that it is very negative to have a large number of people hating Irish because of its comulsory status. Is the issue worth fighting that much over really? Most of the "non-compulsory" people will probably never change their mind. Is the issue worth that much to fight over if our young people will have to grow up with a lot of people expressing their hatred to them because of its compulsory status? The status quo- because it is FF-led- creates a very bad atmosphere. Surely we should make it optional?
 


LowIQ

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These constant attacks on the Irish language and culture are becoming tiresome and are the main reason I will never, ever vote for your party. I don't trust FF with my money but I don't trust you lot with something even more fundamental: my nationality. Putting the Blueshirts in power with your squeamishness about being Irish is a very scary prospect indeed.
If you really care about the language, improve teaching methods, concentrate on conversational Irish, allocate more funding to media since we need more than one local radio station and a part-time TV station, etc., etc.
Writing your name in Irish and telling us Enda is fluent in Irish doesn't fool anyone either. You're just a Trojan Horse to undermine it from within.
 
9

905

Bit of a low blow there low IQ. I would favour compulsory Irish, but I went to an all-Irish speaking school so I'm probably being a bit unfair. It is debatable how many people actually hate Irish. Back when FG first proposed the change there were two surveys published. Both showed different answers (that suited the people who ordered the surveys) but both showed that the younger a person got the more positive his attitude towards Irish.
 

geraghd

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LowIQ said:
These constant attacks on the Irish language and culture are becoming tiresome and are the main reason I will never, ever vote for your party. I don't trust FF with my money but I don't trust you lot with something even more fundamental: my nationality. Putting the Blueshirts in power with your squeamishness about being Irish is a very scary prospect indeed.
If you really care about the language, improve teaching methods, concentrate on conversational Irish, allocate more funding to media since we need more than one local radio station and a part-time TV station, etc., etc.Writing your name in Irish and telling us Enda is fluent in Irish doesn't fool anyone either. You're just a Trojan Horse to undermine it from within.
What?! We already have a full time TV station and at least 2 radio stations that I know of. What else do you want to waste taxpayers money on? Its not as if the few people that watch and listen to the things already are going to bring in more by simply having more media outlets in irish.

And when did FG constantly attack Irish culture and the language?
We want to see a better way to teach people irish, not enforce it on people who couldnt care less about it.
 

madura

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Darren Mac an Phríora said:
This issue has been discussed on numerous threads, but it has been a long time since the issue has been given its own thread.

I was passionately in favour of the status quo in relation to it staying required.

However, I have come to believe that the issue only deflects attention away from the FF-led Govt. in relation to the other huge issues in relation to an Ghaeilge. Plus I feel that it is very negative to have a large number of people hating Irish because of its comulsory status. Is the issue worth fighting that much over really? Most of the "non-compulsory" people will probably never change their mind.
The same applies to those who favour compulsory Irish, who will obviously continue to vote for parties who support the status quo. (I know of people who voted for FF candidates in the last election for that reason alone.)

No to the question.

Supporters of compulsory Irish are also in favour of ensuring that the teaching methods used are optimal, I might add.
 

White Horse

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Gaelic being a compulsory language has failed.

I always thought that it should be replaced with an optional subject called "Gaelic studies" that would cover the language, music, dance, and social history of that particular section of the people of this island.

The emphasis should be on fun and the subject could be seen as a bit of light relief during a busy academic week.

There is also no reason why this subject should be subject to an examination.

Perhaps this would change people's negative opinion of this particular language.
 

TheBear

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<Mod>Moved to the Culture & Community forum, because it doesn't belong in Current Affairs, and there's no Education forum.</Mod>
 

TradCat

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It should not be compulsory after Junior Cert in my opinion. If the question is what is the best way to maintain and promote Irish then I think it is reasonable to conclude that compulsion has been a failure, the the Gaeltacht has been a failure and the official status of the language has been a failure.

The successes have been the Gaelscoileanna and Irish classes for adults. A revival of Irish will have to come from the grassroots and turning people off in their droves won't help that.

Making it a voluntary subject will have a double benefit. Those who like it and are good at it will score points and those who don't will not come to hate it.

I'm for the language. I always exaggerate my proficiency for the census to keep the numbers up but I don't think forcing it down peoples necks will work or has ever worked.
 

newbie12

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Here's a radical idea - why not improve the teaching and curriculum rather than dumping it as a required subject because it's taught badly?

Dropping it as required for LC was the type of cheap electoral gimmick we have come to expect from Fine Gael and one of the reasons they never get elected. The biggest loss from all the years of British colonialism was the near destruction of our language. They also seem to have left in their wake a large group of self hating Irish people with no interest in their own language or culture.
 

meriwether

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Here's a radical idea - why not improve the teaching and curriculum rather than dumping it as a required subject because it's taught badly?
By jove, he's got it!


They also seem to have left in their wake a large group of self hating Irish people with no interest in their own language or culture.
So how can improved teaching or a curriculum change work on these people, if they hate the culture anyway?
 

newbie12

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meriwether said:
Here's a radical idea - why not improve the teaching and curriculum rather than dumping it as a required subject because it's taught badly?
By jove, he's got it!


[quote:e1u0m3od]They also seem to have left in their wake a large group of self hating Irish people with no interest in their own language or culture.
So how can improved teaching or a curriculum change work on these people, if they hate the culture anyway?[/quote:e1u0m3od]

If only Enda Kenny could get is as well!

Won't do anything for the Irish haters but thankfully they're just a small but noisy minority.
 

meriwether

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newbie12 said:
meriwether said:
Here's a radical idea - why not improve the teaching and curriculum rather than dumping it as a required subject because it's taught badly?
By jove, he's got it!


[quote:b56gfuto]They also seem to have left in their wake a large group of self hating Irish people with no interest in their own language or culture.
So how can improved teaching or a curriculum change work on these people, if they hate the culture anyway?
If only Enda Kenny could get is as well!

Won't do anything for the Irish haters but thankfully they're just a small but noisy minority.[/quote:b56gfuto]

You dont have much of a contribution to make really, bar branding people as 'Irish haters' do you?
Polite society tends to look down on that sort of gibberish, you know.
 

AXL ROSE

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Art should be compulsory for the leaving. Why prefer one side of the brain over the other? I think the country would be a lot nicer to live in if every 17 year old did a bit of painting every week.
 

madura

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newbie12 said:
Here's a radical idea - why not improve the teaching and curriculum rather than dumping it as a required subject because it's taught badly?
It might be a good idea to establish that as a fact first, no? And using internationally recognised criteria, not just on the basis of anecdote and personal memories and judgments.

Is the current curriculum as faulty and the teaching as hopeless as is often assumed? Relative to other subjects, for instance. And if it is, why is the Dept of Education indulging rubbish teaching? I would imagine broader questions about the maintenance of teaching standards would need to be asked in that case.
 

White Horse

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AXL ROSE said:
I think the country would be a lot nicer to live in if every 17 year old did a bit of painting every week.
Judging by the state of motorway underpasses, I though they already did.
 

AXL ROSE

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White Horse said:
Judging by the state of motorway underpasses, I though they already did.
Very good!

Maybe they just need a more appropriate outlet. Man has a hardwired need to create art. Underpasses are just our cave walls.
 

riven

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I am not against it but I do not think that there should be bonuses for those who choose to do their study through Irish
 

Stroke

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The LC does not teach kids Irish, it teaches them how to pass an exam in Irish. This is what struck me when I did Hons LC Irish this year, after doing the pass course 20 years ago. The most irish I learned was for the oral and Irish aural exams, and the percentage marks for this is being increased in the next few years, which will hopefully improve the standard of irish that pupils bring with them when they finish second-level....
 

Watcher

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LowIQ said:
These constant attacks on the Irish language and culture are becoming tiresome and are the main reason I will never, ever vote for your party. I don't trust FF with my money but I don't trust you lot with something even more fundamental: my nationality. Putting the Blueshirts in power with your squeamishness about being Irish is a very scary prospect indeed.
If you really care about the language, improve teaching methods, concentrate on conversational Irish, allocate more funding to media since we need more than one local radio station and a part-time TV station, etc., etc.
Writing your name in Irish and telling us Enda is fluent in Irish doesn't fool anyone either. You're just a Trojan Horse to undermine it from within.
If it is such a great language then people will want to learn it. Make it optional and let the people decide. What are you afraid of? I do believe that the language shouold be encouraged and therefore funding provided for its availability should people decide to learn and speak it but forcing people to do something is not the way forward. Too much importance is placed on the leaving cert to force people to do a subject that will have littyle relevance in the furtherance of their education.
 

18 Brumaire

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"that particular section of the people of this island" amounts to roughly 75% of the people. In the Republic its about 90%.

This is the difficulty with this debate. People like White Horse use it as an oppurtunity to further marginalise Irish.

(Once Bertie goes I will be voting Fianna Fáil)
 


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