Should Irish be optional for the Leaving Certificate?

geraghd

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hiding behind a poster said:
LowIQ said:
These constant attacks on the Irish language and culture are becoming tiresome and are the main reason I will never, ever vote for your party. I don't trust FF with my money but I don't trust you lot with something even more fundamental: my nationality. Putting the Blueshirts in power with your squeamishness about being Irish is a very scary prospect indeed.
If you really care about the language, improve teaching methods, concentrate on conversational Irish, allocate more funding to media since we need more than one local radio station and a part-time TV station, etc., etc.
:roll: Funny, that - because ALL those proposals were contained in a policy document on the Irish language last year. Written by, errr, Fine Gael.....

Except for the TV station bit, given that TnaG,(as it was then) was set up by a Fine Gael government.
It argued for more funding for media?
 


hiding behind a poster

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18 Brumaire said:
Those who support nationalist politics should support the promotion of Irish as the vernacular, irrespective of their origin, otherwise they cannot call themselves "nationalists".
Would you consider yourself a nationalist, Brumaire?
 

LowIQ

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hiding behind a poster

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Johnny said:
hiding behind a poster said:
Except for the TV station bit, given that TnaG,(as it was then) was set up by a Fine Gael government.
Don't think so, HBAP. It started broadcasting in 1996 when FG were in power alright, but was it not established by Michael D. when FF/Lab government was still in power?
If it had, it was at a very early stage of development when that government fell - so presumably if FG hated Irish as much as some here think, they would have ditched it when they took power.
 

Johnny

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hiding behind a poster said:
Johnny said:
[quote="hiding behind a poster":67lyxx5z] Except for the TV station bit, given that TnaG,(as it was then) was set up by a Fine Gael government.
Don't think so, HBAP. It started broadcasting in 1996 when FG were in power alright, but was it not established by Michael D. when FF/Lab government was still in power?
If it had, it was at a very early stage of development when that government fell - so presumably if FG hated Irish as much as some here think, they would have ditched it when they took power.[/quote:67lyxx5z]

In fairness to FG, as far as I remember there was unanimous cross-party support for it at the committee stage in 1992.
 

hiding behind a poster

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LowIQ said:
hiding behind a poster said:
LowIQ said:
These constant attacks on the Irish language and culture are becoming tiresome and are the main reason I will never, ever vote for your party. I don't trust FF with my money but I don't trust you lot with something even more fundamental: my nationality. Putting the Blueshirts in power with your squeamishness about being Irish is a very scary prospect indeed.
If you really care about the language, improve teaching methods, concentrate on conversational Irish, allocate more funding to media since we need more than one local radio station and a part-time TV station, etc., etc.
:roll: Funny, that - because ALL those proposals were contained in a policy document on the Irish language last year. Written by, errr, Fine Gael.....

Except for the TV station bit, given that TnaG,(as it was then) was set up by a Fine Gael government.
Nothing more valuable than a politician's promise. :roll:

:roll: Is that the best you can come up with? I've just sh*t all over your argument by using something (the facts) which you seem fairly unfamiliar with. I really hoped you'd come up with something better - but then again, you'll find it hard with the facts so obviously against you.
 

madura

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meriwether said:
LowIQ said:
newbie12 said:
Watcher said:
LowIQ said:
These constant attacks on the Irish language and culture are becoming tiresome and are the main reason I will never, ever vote for your party. I don't trust FF with my money but I don't trust you lot with something even more fundamental: my nationality. Putting the Blueshirts in power with your squeamishness about being Irish is a very scary prospect indeed.
If you really care about the language, improve teaching methods, concentrate on conversational Irish, allocate more funding to media since we need more than one local radio station and a part-time TV station, etc., etc.
Writing your name in Irish and telling us Enda is fluent in Irish doesn't fool anyone either. You're just a Trojan Horse to undermine it from within.
If it is such a great language then people will want to learn it. Make it optional and let the people decide. What are you afraid of? I do believe that the language shouold be encouraged and therefore funding provided for its availability should people decide to learn and speak it but forcing people to do something is not the way forward. Too much importance is placed on the leaving cert to force people to do a subject that will have littyle relevance in the furtherance of their education.
This argument really irritates me. Should we not 'force' students to learn maths and English too? Any country which doesn't insist on achieving minimum standards of knowledge for its language is going nowhere. Irish being weak is a justification for increasing the amount of educational resources not reducing them.
Thank you for stating the obvious. Education is indeed compulsory. I have no use for English and Maths above primary level. French is also "useless" to me. Accounting and Chemistry are probably the most "useless" of all. I haven't even thought about them since leaving school. I still resent my teachers, however, for "ramming them down my throat." They are all a complete "waste of money" and "compulsory education" should be abolished. That way, I will "respect" them more.
As I said earlier, the Blueshirts are using people like Darren Mac as a Trojan Horse to undermine the language from within. .
The last time I checked, you werent forced to do French, Chemistry or accounting for the Leaving Cert, were you?
No you weren't.

FG want compulsion ended for the leaving cert. Before that, children will have approx 12 years of compulsion.
For now. But what assurance have we got that they wouldn't push it back farther if they got the chance? I mean, if they're against compulsion in principle...
 

meriwether

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madura said:
meriwether said:
LowIQ said:
newbie12 said:
Watcher said:
[quote="LowIQ":31771igs]These constant attacks on the Irish language and culture are becoming tiresome and are the main reason I will never, ever vote for your party. I don't trust FF with my money but I don't trust you lot with something even more fundamental: my nationality. Putting the Blueshirts in power with your squeamishness about being Irish is a very scary prospect indeed.
If you really care about the language, improve teaching methods, concentrate on conversational Irish, allocate more funding to media since we need more than one local radio station and a part-time TV station, etc., etc.
Writing your name in Irish and telling us Enda is fluent in Irish doesn't fool anyone either. You're just a Trojan Horse to undermine it from within.
If it is such a great language then people will want to learn it. Make it optional and let the people decide. What are you afraid of? I do believe that the language shouold be encouraged and therefore funding provided for its availability should people decide to learn and speak it but forcing people to do something is not the way forward. Too much importance is placed on the leaving cert to force people to do a subject that will have littyle relevance in the furtherance of their education.
This argument really irritates me. Should we not 'force' students to learn maths and English too? Any country which doesn't insist on achieving minimum standards of knowledge for its language is going nowhere. Irish being weak is a justification for increasing the amount of educational resources not reducing them.
Thank you for stating the obvious. Education is indeed compulsory. I have no use for English and Maths above primary level. French is also "useless" to me. Accounting and Chemistry are probably the most "useless" of all. I haven't even thought about them since leaving school. I still resent my teachers, however, for "ramming them down my throat." They are all a complete "waste of money" and "compulsory education" should be abolished. That way, I will "respect" them more.
As I said earlier, the Blueshirts are using people like Darren Mac as a Trojan Horse to undermine the language from within. .
The last time I checked, you werent forced to do French, Chemistry or accounting for the Leaving Cert, were you?
No you weren't.

FG want compulsion ended for the leaving cert. Before that, children will have approx 12 years of compulsion.
For now. But what assurance have we got that they wouldn't push it back farther if they got the chance? I mean, if they're against compulsion in principle...[/quote:31771igs]


And what does 'push back farther' mean?
I dont see a link between ending compulsion, and abolishing the language.
The last time I checked, the myriad of other subjects that aren't compulsory eren't in nay danger of being abolished from the curriculum.
 

madura

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meriwether said:
The last time I checked, you werent forced to do French, Chemistry or accounting for the Leaving Cert, were you?
No you weren't.

FG want compulsion ended for the leaving cert. Before that, children will have approx 12 years of compulsion.
For now. But what assurance have we got that they wouldn't push it back farther if they got the chance? I mean, if they're against compulsion in principle...[/quote]


And what does 'push back farther' mean?
I dont see a link between ending compulsion, and abolishing the language.
The last time I checked, the myriad of other subjects that aren't compulsory eren't in nay danger of being abolished from the curriculum.[/quote]

Are you saying you believe that Irish should be compulsory to Junior Cert, then?
 

18 Brumaire

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In my view "nationalism" means adhering to or promoting the interests of a particular "nation".

Since one of the hallmarks of a nation is use of a peculiar language, then supporting the use of a peculiar language associated with a particular nation makes me a nationalist.
 

meriwether

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madura said:
meriwether said:
The last time I checked, you werent forced to do French, Chemistry or accounting for the Leaving Cert, were you?
No you weren't.

FG want compulsion ended for the leaving cert. Before that, children will have approx 12 years of compulsion.
For now. But what assurance have we got that they wouldn't push it back farther if they got the chance? I mean, if they're against compulsion in principle...

And what does 'push back farther' mean?
I dont see a link between ending compulsion, and abolishing the language.
The last time I checked, the myriad of other subjects that aren't compulsory eren't in nay danger of being abolished from the curriculum.[/quote]

Are you saying you believe that Irish should be compulsory to Junior Cert, then?[/quote]

Yes.
Thats also the policy of FG.
 

meriwether

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18 Brumaire said:
In my view "nationalism" means adhering to or promoting the interests of a particular "nation".

Since one of the hallmarks of a nation is use of a peculiar language, then supporting the use of a peculiar language associated with a particular nation makes me a nationalist.
What of Australian nationalists, or US nationalists.
They have no language.
Have they no nation?
 

hiding behind a poster

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18 Brumaire said:
Those who support nationalist politics should support the promotion of Irish as the vernacular, irrespective of their origin, otherwise they cannot call themselves "nationalists".
But you've since called yourself a "nationalist" - why aren't you using Irish as "the vernacular" by posting in Irish on this thread?
 

LowIQ

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hiding behind a poster said:
LowIQ said:
[quote="hiding behind a poster":2s0slcr3]
LowIQ said:
These constant attacks on the Irish language and culture are becoming tiresome and are the main reason I will never, ever vote for your party. I don't trust FF with my money but I don't trust you lot with something even more fundamental: my nationality. Putting the Blueshirts in power with your squeamishness about being Irish is a very scary prospect indeed.
If you really care about the language, improve teaching methods, concentrate on conversational Irish, allocate more funding to media since we need more than one local radio station and a part-time TV station, etc., etc.
:roll: Funny, that - because ALL those proposals were contained in a policy document on the Irish language last year. Written by, errr, Fine Gael.....

Except for the TV station bit, given that TnaG,(as it was then) was set up by a Fine Gael government.
Nothing more valuable than a politician's promise. :roll:

:roll: Is that the best you can come up with? I've just sh*t all over your argument by using something (the facts) which you seem fairly unfamiliar with. I really hoped you'd come up with something better - but then again, you'll find it hard with the facts so obviously against you.[/quote:2s0slcr3]
Now you have just descended to the level of personal abuse.
 

18 Brumaire

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What of Australian nationalists, or US nationalists.
They have no language. Yes, English
Have they no nation? Yes.

You could have picked Canada, a more difficult example. But then the demand by some Quebeqois for self determination points to a correlation between language and nation.
 

Respvblica

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My view is this: Irish should remain the national language(along with english) in the constitution. The constitution should transcend what is preferable/useful in business/etc etc and should mark the identity of the nation. Whether we like it or not we are more Gaelic than Anglo-Saxon, Norman or Viking(or Polish), even though we **currently** speak a lot more english than irish.
As to the education of it we should do what gets the best results - namely more people speaking irish. The current system of enforcement has apparantly achieved very little. What I think we should do is look at the system of luxembourg. There primary school chidren learn everything through French for the 1st year, German for the 2nd year and Letzenburgerish for the 3rd and I think it continues on from that. I dont see that we lose anything and if the child has a full year of Irish withour any recourse to english they will soon become comfortable in it and not fear it. The current system is simply a recipe for disaster.

Another thing: I think we should judge FF on the language, not by their defence of it as compulsory, but on their effectiveness in getting the Irish speaking Irish again. After 70% of the last 70 years in government, they and not FG, should take the lions share of the blame for the current state of the language.
For FF Irish is a museum peice. You cant touch it, but its unused gathering dust. Fine Gael on the otherhand, are generating debate, providing initiatives, and removing taboos, because they are genuinely interested in it becoming a tool that can enhance our culture and our sense of ourselves. Most importantly a renewal in irish will boost our own self confidence(nationally and perosnally) .The Irish people do need a kick when it comes to our own language and the language needs us to becomes passionate about it. Otherwise it will stay on the museum where FF have parked it.
 

18 Brumaire

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" Funny, that - because ALL those proposals were contained in a policy document on the Irish language last year. Written by, errr, Fine Gael..... "

And all we have heard from individual Fine Gael politicians since is ........compulsory Irish.......compulsory Irish.......compulsory Irish............., Charlie Flanagan.........Olwyn Enright..........
 

Dasayev

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Irish should not be singled out. Most of what is learned is school is not particularly interesting or of use in the future. Children tend to be bored by most subjects. Compulsion has little to do with it.

English is also compulsory but it's not as if people have much interest in Shakespeare or writing poetry. Many people use their 13 years of learning English to do nothing more than read celebrity magazines and tabloid newspapers.

It's part of a whole educational malaise. If schools were invented tomorrow would somebody decide that the best way to teach children would be to lock them in a class room for 6 hours a day for 13 years?

Irish has suffered from this approach as has nearly every subject.
 


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