Should Jerusalem be the legitimate capital of Israel?

darkhorse

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Israel has declared that Jerusalem is its capital and it has been the home of the Knesset (its Dail) since 1948
So why should Israel not have the right to choose its own capital like every other country?
Of course, there is a fake, non-existent, country believed to be called palestine in which all its inhabitants have been held as imaginary refugees for generations which claims to have its capital as Jerusalam too.
But as we all know, Arab Palestine (now called Jordan) already have a huge country they can all their own
So why do Jordanian Arabs believe that Jerusalem is their capital too?
 


McSlaggart

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Israel has declared that Jerusalem is its capital and it has been the home of the Knesset (its Dail) since 1948
So why should Israel not have the right to choose its own capital like every other country?
Of course, there is a fake, non-existent, country believed to be called palestine in which all its inhabitants have been held as imaginary refugees for generations which claims to have its capital as Jerusalam too.
But as we all know, Arab Palestine (now called Jordan) already have a huge country they can all their own
So why do Jordanian Arabs believe that Jerusalem is their capital too?
Google is your friend.
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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Israel has declared that Jerusalem is its capital and it has been the home of the Knesset (its Dail) since 1948
So why should Israel not have the right to choose its own capital like every other country?
Of course, there is a fake, non-existent, country believed to be called palestine in which all its inhabitants have been held as imaginary refugees for generations which claims to have its capital as Jerusalam too.
But as we all know, Arab Palestine (now called Jordan) already have a huge country they can all their own
So why do Jordanian Arabs believe that Jerusalem is their capital too?
Kind of like that fake non-existent place called 'Ireland'? That's how the argument went until the FS got established, and it's still asserted insofar as any aspirations for a united Ireland in some PUL circles. It was just a geographic area, that's all, so the story went or even still goes...no sovereignty or unified place called 'Ireland', and one that became a section of the British Crown and later UK for centuries.

Just like the British Crown once did regarding Ireland, Israel can declare what it wants...obviously the resident Palestinians have other ideas about that. Therein lies the issue as we all know.

In saying these things, I'm not saying I support the Palestinians in their claims too. Quite frankly, the Israelis face things like Hamas that don't even recognise their right to exist at all with brutal intentions. Abbas is also two faced in that regard. On the flip side, the Israeli right wing controls the Knesset, and they want to control the entire place as they see it regarding the 1967 areas at issue with control and ethnic cleansing in mind.

And there it is and there you have it...two hard core right wing enemies in charge that won't make a deal with each other, with the rest there caught in the sh!tstorm.

Given that scenario, though, what positive interest is there of Ireland or others to get involved with bad actors on either side at the expense of advocating for a reasonable two state solution that poses the only shot at making a settlement work there?

It's not our dispute anyway, and until and unless a good faith reasonable actor stands up, why bother getting involved with a bad side of either of them. It will just come back to haunt and harm us doing so.
 

darkhorse

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Kind of like that fake non-existent place called 'Ireland'? That's how the argument went until the FS got established, and it's still asserted insofar as any aspirations for a united Ireland in some PUL circles. It was just a geographic area, that's all, so the story went or even still goes...no sovereignty or unified place called 'Ireland', and one that became a section of the British Crown and later UK for centuries.

Just like the British Crown once did regarding Ireland, Israel can declare what it wants...obviously the resident Palestinians have other ideas about that. Therein lies the issue as we all know.

In saying these things, I'm not saying I support the Palestinians in their claims too. Quite frankly, the Israelis face things like Hamas that don't even recognise their right to exist at all. Abbas is also two faced in that regard. On the flip side, the Israeli right wing controls the Knesset, and they want to control the entire place as they see it regarding the 1967 areas at issue.

And there is is and there you have it...two hard core right wing enemies in charge that won't make a deal with each other, with the rest caught in the sh!tstorm. Given that scenario, though, what interest is it of Ireland or other to get involved with bad actors on either side at the expense of advocating for a reasonable two state solution that poses the only shot at making a settlement work there?

It's not our dispute anyway, and until and unless a good faith reasonable actor stands up, why bother getting involved on a bad side of either of them.
I agree its not our dispute but it is the moral duty of any decent person to stand up for what is right
Especially us Irish who have a long record in such issues
Israel have been bullied and attacked by rich Arab nations and its Socialist allies in the West since its foundation
And all those of us who stand up for what is moral and right need to support that beleaguered country
 
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gleeful

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Israel has declared that Jerusalem is its capital and it has been the home of the Knesset (its Dail) since 1948
So why should Israel not have the right to choose its own capital like every other country?
Of course, there is a fake, non-existent, country believed to be called palestine in which all its inhabitants have been held as imaginary refugees for generations which claims to have its capital as Jerusalam too.
But as we all know, Arab Palestine (now called Jordan) already have a huge country they can all their own
So why do Jordanian Arabs believe that Jerusalem is their capital too?
Logically all the people in Israel and the occupied territories should be Israeli citizens - so 13 million in total. The result of the death of the two state solution is the one state solution. Jerusalem should be the capital of an Israel that gives civil and voting rights to all its people.
 

McSlaggart

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I agree its not our dispute but it is the moral duty of any decent person to stand up for what is right
Especially us Irish who have a long record in such issues
Israel have been bullied and attacked by rich Arab nations and its Socialist allies in the West since its foundation
And all those of us who stand up for what is moral and right need to support that beleaguered country
[video=youtube;qMGuYjt6CP8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8[/video]
 

darkhorse

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Logically all the people in Israel and the occupied territories should be Israeli citizens - so 13 million in total. The result of the death of the two state solution is the one state solution. Jerusalem should be the capital of an Israel that gives civil and voting rights to all its people.
No most of those so called palestinian people have been held as 'refugees' for generations in Israel
They are not Israels responsibility
 

Sheeple_Waker

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There’s no reason not to recognise West Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, once their government begins complying with international law. You know, dismantling the settlements and ending the military occupation of the West Bank. Hamas and the PLO are respectively vicious and corrupt but that doesn’t undermine the Palestinian right to their own state, nor does Israeli occupation legitimise settlement building and annexation in the West Bank. Ultimately a peace agreement with a two state settlement, both with their capitals in Jerusalem is the only viable solution.
 

McSlaggart

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No most of those so called palestinian people have been held as 'refugees' for generations in Israel
They are not Israels responsibility
Where do you think Israel is in the world? Palestinian Jews!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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I agree its not our dispute but it is the moral duty of any decent person to stand up for what is right
Especially us Irish who have a long record in such issues
Israel have been bullied and attacked by rich Arab nations and its Socialist allies in the West since its foundation
And all those of us who stand up for what is moral and right need to support that beleaguered country
Moral duty? Sounds nice, but it's a hell of a long list out there, so why does this one get such special attention, especially when there isn't a clear 'good guy' in charge right now?

You'll get no arguments from me about the Palestinian leaders right now. There's simply no way that Israel can make a deal with its 'leadership' and its agitating allies like Iran, etc, given what they believe and intend for them right down to what's taught to Palestinian children, e.g.,

Hamas prayer to kill all the Jews
Hamas Sermon from the Gaza Strip: Our Doctrine Entails Exterminating the Jews
Hamas to kids: Shoot all the Jews
Hamas TV teaches kids to kill Jews
Hamas bunny 'killed by IAF' trying to kill the bunny and children
Hamas' Children TV with a Terrorist Jew-Eating Rabbit
"Killing Jews is worship that draws us close to Allah" - Hamas music video
Hamas TV: Jews enemies of Allah -should all be killed
Hamas Bunny Indoctrination - Global Jihad
Hamas Rabbit: Eat the Danes!
Hamas Bunny Threatens to Kill Danes over Muhammad Cartoons
Hamas TV 'Mickey Mouse' teaches Islamic Supremacism

and the 'nicer' PA isn't much different as they also indoctrinate kids to consider Israel illegitimate, part of 'occupied Palestine' and to 'reconquer' it, e.g.

Jaffa and Haifa are in "State of Palestine" - PA TV kids' programme
Palestinian Authority TV teaches kids that Israeli cities are "occupied" Palestine
PA TV Children’s Show from Tel Aviv: One Day We Will Regain Jaffa, Haifa, Acre, and Nazareth

But there's no 'good guys' in charge right now in the Knesset. It's Israeli right wingers with ethnic and/or religious meanness and/or fanaticism that simply want the disputed territories for Israel with the Palestinians evicted or watered down where it's essentially ethnic cleansing and conquest. For a group so infamously oppressed by the Nazis, to have their own advocates of lebensraum with an asserted religious entitlement is a sad twist of fate.

So no, when there's no reasonable leadership in a conflict, there's no reason for us to involve ourselves in it, unless of course, we want to form a coalition to take over the place against both hardline sides and forge some kind of 'nation building' project with it, but we know how such things also turn out all too often.
 

darkhorse

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There’s no reason not to recognise West Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, once their government begins complying with international law. You know, dismantling the settlements and ending the military occupation of the West Bank. Hamas and the PLO are respectively vicious and corrupt but that doesn’t undermine the Palestinian right to their own state, nor does Israeli occupation legitimise settlement building and annexation in the West Bank. Ultimately a peace agreement with a two state settlement, both with their capitals in Jerusalem is the only viable solution.

But Jews were kicked out of East Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria by Jordan when they occupied that territory and expelled all Jews
They have every right to come back
And Israel never did that having defeated the Jordanian attempt to wipe out their country
 

paddycomeback

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But Jews were kicked out of East Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria by Jordan when they occupied that territory and expelled all Jews
They have every right to come back
And Israel never did that having defeated the Jordanian attempt to wipe out their country
I cannot believe you trolls actually sit there and get paid for this. Do you think you will influence people in Ireland one way or the other?
If anything the blatant attempt at manipulation will have the opposite effect to that you desire.
 

darkhorse

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I cannot believe you trolls actually sit there and get paid for this. Do you think you will influence people in Ireland one way or the other?
If anything the blatant attempt at manipulation will have the opposite effect to that you desire.
Is there something factual you wish to say?
'Paddy'
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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But Jews were kicked out of East Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria by Jordan when they occupied that territory and expelled all Jews
They have every right to come back
And Israel never did that having defeated the Jordanian attempt to wipe out their country
That's true, but on the flip side, there were Palestinians kicked out of what's called 'Israel' today. Been lots of that there, with the hardliners of each wanting to kick the rest out the other part and take it over because 'God gave it to them' and ethnic-tribal claims and whatnot.
 

darkhorse

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That's true, but on the flip side, there were Palestinians kicked out of what's called 'Israel' today. Been lots of that there, with the hardliners of each wanting to kick the rest out the other part and take it over because 'God gave it to them' and ethnic-tribal claims and whatnot.
But those so called 'palestinians' never owned anything
They were mostly peasant farmers paying rent to wealthy Arab Ottoman landowners from Damascus or Cairo
You hardly think wealthy Arabs would allow peasant farmers to own their own land do you?
 

Sheeple_Waker

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But Jews were kicked out of East Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria by Jordan when they occupied that territory and expelled all Jews
They have every right to come back
And Israel never did that having defeated the Jordanian attempt to wipe out their country
What a strange argument, it could easily be said that the same principle applies to Palestinians expelled from Jaffa or anywhere else in Israel. I made my position quite clear, if the Palestinians are in breach of any UN resolutions then they should be compelled to abide by same as part of any agreement.
 

darkhorse

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What a strange argument, it could easily be said that the same principle applies to Palestinians expelled from Jaffa or anywhere else in Israel. I made my position quite clear, if the Palestinians are in breach of any UN resolutions then they should be compelled to abide by same as part of any agreement.
But they weren't
They were complicit in the attempt to entirely destroy Israel in its war of Independence
 

O'Sullivan Bere

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But those so called 'palestinians' never owned anything
They were mostly peasant farmers paying rent to wealthy Arab landowners
You hardly think wealthy Arabs would allow peasant farmers to own their own land do you?
C'mon mate...the Palestinians have been living there since the Arab invasion days and earlier. So what if they had local landlords...so did the Irish...does that mean the local Irish for centuries didn't belong in Ireland and have a rightful claim to it?

Take this American agitator/comedian Rabbi Jackie Mason for example: "I see it the way every Jew sees it. Palestinians just have a false feeling that the Jews are taking over their land when in fact they’re taking over the Israeli land. They don’t belong there… historically, biblically, throughout– by every principle, by every standard, everybody knows, It’s the Jewish land. ..."
Jackie Mason says 'giving' the Palestinians the West Bank is like giving them half of Florida

He's from Sheboygan, Wisconsin, USA, and he says the West Bank is *his* land rather than those who have been born, lived and died there for centuries? Now *that's* chutzpah. He's a right wing Orthodox rabbi who really isn't any less fanatical than the Islamist counterparts in Palestine. It's also certainly false that "every Jew sees it" as he claimed. Right wing, racist and/or religious fundie Jews like him usually do, but not the bulk of them.

That said, a great number of Israelis are now native there too for a few generations, so it's their home too. Regardless of whether Israel should have been formed and recognised or not, it's also a fait accompli and deserves to exist. It doesn't mean it's also entitled to expand.
 

Sheeple_Waker

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But they weren't
They were complicit in the attempt to entirely destroy Israel in its war of Independence
Why don’t you come out from under that bridge and have a real conversation? This is very poor trolling. Any whataboutery threads on this topic could be virtually endless tales of wrongs and crimes committed on both sides. Drawing the poison is how the international community can help resolve this intractable dispute, Trump going off the deep end over Jerusalem is not helpful in this context.
 


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