Should NI MPs sit in the Dail?

LeDroit

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This kind of came up on another thread but it's probably worth a conversation on it's own merits.

Personally, I want to see a united Ireland, by consent. In the interim, and in order to foster the belief that we are one nation and can work together I would propose that NI MPs would be allowed full speaking and voting rights in the Dail. (don't know how to do fadas).

The arguments against could include that NI residents don't pay taxes to Dublin therefore should they be allowed to influence spending here. I would counter that Dublin wouldn't be spending taxes in NI so that issue shouldn't arise.

Another potential issue is that Unionist MPs would probably boycott the Dail. I would agree that is likely initially, however I think the pragmatic, especially as time wears on, will recognise the real politik of the situation and the opportunity that influencing the Irish govt could offer them. They could even be in a coalition govt.

Overall, I think it makes a united Ireland more likely and shows the world that we see our nation as one right now. Practical issues like non coincidental GEs can be accommodated by allowing sitting MPs to participate in whatever Dail they find themselves.

I wonder what reaction, if any, there would be from the British govt? Can anyone see any practical impediments I'm missing? Does anyone have any ideological objections? Could this be a help or a hindrance in a manifesto for a party in our upcoming GE in the Republic?
 


R

RepublicanSocialist1798

This kind of came up on another thread but it's probably worth a conversation on it's own merits.

Personally, I want to see a united Ireland, by consent. In the interim, and in order to foster the belief that we are one nation and can work together I would propose that NI MPs would be allowed full speaking and voting rights in the Dail. (don't know how to do fadas).

The arguments against could include that NI residents don't pay taxes to Dublin therefore should they be allowed to influence spending here. I would counter that Dublin wouldn't be spending taxes in NI so that issue shouldn't arise.

Another potential issue is that Unionist MPs would probably boycott the Dail. I would agree that is likely initially, however I think the pragmatic, especially as time wears on, will recognise the real politik of the situation and the opportunity that influencing the Irish govt could offer them. They could even be in a coalition govt.

Overall, I think it makes a united Ireland more likely and shows the world that we see our nation as one right now. Practical issues like non coincidental GEs can be accommodated by allowing sitting MPs to participate in whatever Dail they find themselves.

I wonder what reaction, if any, there would be from the British govt? Can anyone see any practical impediments I'm missing? Does anyone have any ideological objections? Could this be a help or a hindrance in a manifesto for a party in our upcoming GE in the Republic?
SF proposed it in 2005 and it did get some support within FF but it got shot down by FG, the PD's and Labour. Like you I think it'd be a quite reasonable but I don't think we'd see it for a good while.

Northern MPs were allowed to speak at some joint oireachtas committee meetings a while back but I doubt its still continuing. Also I'd wonder how it could be implemented. If it required a referendum I don't think too many people would be keen on the idea.
 

LeDroit

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SF proposed it in 2005 and it did get some support within FF but it got shot down by FG, the PD's and Labour. Like you I think it'd be a quite reasonable but I don't think we'd see it for a good while.

Northern MPs were allowed to speak at some joint oireachtas committee meetings a while back but I doubt its still continuing. Also I'd wonder how it could be implemented. If it required a referendum I don't think too many people would be keen on the idea.
I don't think it'd need a referendum. The constitution claims NI people as Irish despite the loss of articles 2&3. I actually think people would support it anyway. Irish people do support the nostalgic notion of a united Ireland even if the financial and security issues would concern them. This option leaves those concerns squarely at Whitehall's door.

It would be implemented very simply. Dail resumes on Tuesday, set your sat-nav and we'll see you then.
 

Cabbage/Turnip

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I am 23 and I like to think i am coming out of my innocent stage of political ideology (some of my ideas would still be thought stupid), but one thing i noticed in ireland as I get older we are really a country of cowards in general. We do not liek any sort of change that can be considered drastic and we just follow what other bigger countries do regarding laws, i think the above idea is a very proactive one
 

Aristodemus

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No
 

fool

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This idea is good in theory, but in practise it would cause a lot of problems. We'd get a large bunch of extra TDs who could easily end up holding the balance of power, yet who would answer to voters outside the state, and who are unlikely to take the Dáil into consideration when voting. It would allow a huge block of unionists to interfere with the workings of the Republic's government, undermine coalitions, and completely remove the credibility of the Dublin government in its role in the six counties.
 

LeDroit

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I am 23 and I like to think i am coming out of my innocent stage of political ideology (some of my ideas would still be thought stupid), but one thing i noticed in ireland as I get older we are really a country of cowards in general. We do not liek any sort of change that can be considered drastic and we just follow what other bigger countries do regarding laws, i think the above idea is a very proactive one
The older you get the more frustrated you will become. The realisation will hit you that we are an incredibly conservative country both socially and politically. If you grew up in a liberal city environment you won't fully understand it until you travel around. The dancing at the crossroads mentality is actually the pervasive one in this country.
 

Cai

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The obvious problem is that the constituents of Northern MPs don't pay taxes in the Republic - so if Northern MPs have full voting rights, they would often be voting to spend money that their constituents don't contribute towards.

Having said that, I can see no reason not to give them speaking rights as well as voting rights in certain areas.
 

fool

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I don't think it'd need a referendum. The constitution claims NI people as Irish despite the loss of articles 2&3. I actually think people would support it anyway.
A referendum would certainly be required. The constitution sets the rules for how TDs are elected. Adding extra TDs, ones elected according to the rules of a different state, in a different state, would require changing the constitution.
 
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LeDroit

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This idea is good in theory, but in practise it would cause a lot of problems. We'd get a large bunch of extra TDs who could easily end up holding the balance of power, yet who would answer to voters outside the state, and who are unlikely to take the Dáil into consideration when voting. It would allow a huge block of unionists to interfere with the workings of the Republic's government, undermine coalitions, and completely remove the credibility of the Dublin government in its role in the six counties.
On the contrary, I think it emboldens the Republics reputation and aspirations in NI. When unionist voters see that their reps can influence Dublin's govt it makes their consent to a united Ireland more likely. The 'interference' you cite gets to the crux of the dilemma that a UI will bring. Unionists are not going away, they are part of us. If we want a UI, their 'interference' will be a part of our new reality.
 

LeDroit

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The obvious problem is that the constituents of Northern MPs don't pay taxes in the Republic - so if Northern MPs have full voting rights, they would often be voting to spend money that their constituents don't contribute towards.

Having said that, I can see no reason not to give them speaking rights as well as voting rights in certain areas.
I addressed your issue in my OP. We don't get taxes from them but similarly we don't spend taxes on them.
 
R

RepublicanSocialist1798

This idea is good in theory, but in practise it would cause a lot of problems. We'd get a large bunch of extra TDs who could easily end up holding the balance of power, yet who would answer to voters outside the state, and who are unlikely to take the Dáil into consideration when voting. It would allow a huge block of unionists to interfere with the workings of the Republic's government, undermine coalitions, and completely remove the credibility of the Dublin government in its role in the six counties.
I'd say many unionists wouldn't be seen dead in Leinster House. Just imagine Sammy "expel the catholics" Wilson giving a speech there. Also the "huge block" is really only eight (nine if you count Sylvia Hermon) MPs.

It is a valid enough point. A safeguard would probably refuse them the right to vote on confidence and supply bills.
 

fool

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LeDroit, I have no problem with the idea of Unionists sitting in Dáil governing a thirty two county Ireland.
But any Northern Irish MPs given automatic rights as TDs as well, whether they are Unionist, Republican or otherwise, would have the freedom to engage in as many stunts as they want and as much mischief as they want, without having any responsibility whatsoever.
 

LeDroit

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I'd say many unionists wouldn't be seen dead in Leinster House. Just imagine Sammy "expel the catholics" Wilson giving a speech there. Also the "huge block" is really only eight (nine if you count Sylvia Hermon) MPs.
Initially maybe but as time wears on they'll see the opportunity for influence they have.
 

fool

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I'd say many unionists wouldn't be seen dead in Leinster House. Just imagine Sammy "expel the catholics" Wilson giving a speech there. Also the "huge block" is really only eight (nine if you count Sylvia Hermon) MPs.

It is a valid enough point. A safeguard would probably refuse them the right to vote on confidence and supply bills.
Eight votes is a lot in terms of the balance of power in Leinster House. And if the McGimpsey brothers were prepared to use our courts to try to score political points, you can be sure that all sorts of northern MPs would be happy to use the Dáil in the same way.
 

Cabbage/Turnip

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The older you get the more frustrated you will become. The realisation will hit you that we are an incredibly conservative country both socially and politically. If you grew up in a liberal city environment you won't fully understand it until you travel around. The dancing at the crossroads mentality is actually the pervasive one in this country.
I have done a fair bit of travelling and I sort of realised that most of europe is the same pretty dry and boring in general.. german towns at night time is akin to a graveyard. But what gets me is the insane notion of lets not try an alternative lets just keep using the same old method that our parents used (even though it has proven wrong, I respect my parents very much but alot of what they think has been shown to be wrong)... its actually mental. What gets me more and more is the people that say or do something different are balsted with all the media and social glare to make a fool of them while nohting is been shun on those that have brought is to were we are today
 


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