Should priests have diplomatic immunity? Vatican 'diplomat' evades US justice system.

Lumpy Talbot

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No
In the case of Carlo Alberto Capella, ranked as a monsignor in the catholic church hierarchy, and formerly assigned to the vatican's embassy in Washington this person was the subject of an investigation over possession of child pornography by police authorities in Washington.

The US police asked the vatican to lift/remove his diplomatic immunity as they wished to pick him up and question him. It appears that this was the signal for said Capella to fly to Rome where he has been sentenced by a vatican court, fined something like £4,000 and a five year prison sentence to be served at a vatican prison. This last is unusual as I understand the vatican and the Italian state have an arrangement whereby vatican criminals tend to serve their sentences in Italian prisons.

Capella is an Italian national. Canada had issued an arrest warrant for the man. Capella subsequently pleaded guilty to the charges laid against him in technically one of the world's smallest 'states'.

Given that the vatican responded to the US request to lift his immunity by recalling him to Rome and thereby evading both US and Canadian authorities has the time come to seriously look at diplomatic accreditation awarded to what after all are representatives of a religion and a 'state' that only exists as an oddity secured in a past where such people were awarded far too much respect and in a world where priests were not questioned?

Should the vatican be allowed to secure evasion from criminal justice systems in the jurisdictions where crimes are committed simply by abusing a freedom allowed to diplomats?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44590887
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/22/vatican-diplomat-admits-he-possessed-child-abuse-images
 


Lumpy Talbot

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The sentence to be served by Capella is I believe to be served at the Gendarmerie Barracks in the vatican territory.

To join the Gendarmerie one must be between 21 and 24 years of age, male and unmarried.

Probably of little interest to someone whose proclivities seem to lie more in the direction of young people but I'm sure the Gendarmerie still have their admirers. The Corps of Gendarmes is, as the vatican states,composed at this time of some '130 members'.

http://www.vaticanstate.va/content/vaticanstate/en/stato-e-governo/struttura-del-governatorato/corpo-della-gendarmeria.html

One reason for questioning diplomatic immunity for priests working for the vatican abroad may be that anyone sentenced for crimes by the vatican can actually be pardoned directly by the pope, something of course that would not be available to the guilty were they serving time in the US or Canada.
 
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fat finger

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The sentence to be served by Capella is I believe to be served at the Gendarmerie Barracks in the vatican territory.

To join the Gendarmerie one must be between 21 and 24 years of age, male and unmarried.

Probably of little interest to someone whose proclivities seem to lie more in the direction of young people but I'm sure the Gendarmerie still have their admirers. The Corps of Gendarmes is, as the vatican states,composed at this time of some '130 members'.

Gendarme Corps

One reason for questioning diplomatic immunity for priests working for the vatican abroad may be that anyone sentenced for crimes by the vatican can actually be pardoned directly by the pope, something of course that would not be available to the guilty were they serving time in the US or Canada.
More nonsense - outgoing presidents in the USA traditionally issue a long list of pardons before leaving office, the most notorious in recent years was Bill Clinton pardoning fugitive Israeli fraudster Marc Rich, who just happened to have donated, what a surprise, millions of dollars to the Clinton Foundation
 

HereWeGoAgain

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Article: Why the Vatican's diplomatic immunity days are numbered
Author: Eamonn McCann
Publication: Belfast Telegraph


If Vatican City were a state like any other, its internal regime would be a human rights scandal. Saudi Arabia, China and, certainly, Iran are beacons of freedom and equality by comparison. But the Vatican is never cited for these human rights violations at the UN or when the Pope meets with representatives of other states: one reason for this being that it's not Vatican City which is recognised as a state, but the Holy See, an altogether less corporeal affair.

The Holy See has existed in one form or another since the early days of Christianity, whereas Vatican City came into existence only in 1929, as a result of the Lateran Treaty between the Holy See and Mussolini's fascist regime


https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/eamonn-mccann/why-the-vaticans-diplomatic-immunity-days-are-numbered-28557346.html
 

Dame_Enda

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Looks like the RCC returning to the bad old days of moving priests around.

Imagine if this happened in an Irish school if a priest teacher was accused of abuse and the Vatican said he had diplomatic immunity. Another reason to secularise the state school system. We essentially have a foreign state, which is also a religion, controlling our primary schools and many of our Secondary Schools, which is also a violation of our sovereignty.
 

HereWeGoAgain

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Looks like the RCC returning to the bad old days of moving priests around.
Protect the Institution and those within

Pope Francis has quietly reduced sanctions against a handful of paedophile priests, applying his vision of a merciful Church even to its worst offenders in ways that survivors of abuse and the Pope’s own advisers question.

One case has come back to haunt him: An Italian priest who received the Pope’s clemency was later convicted by an Italian criminal court for his sex crimes against children as young as 12. Fr Mauro Inzoli is now facing a second church trial after new evidence emerged against him, The Associated Press has learned.

The Inzoli case is one of several in which Francis overruled the advice of the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) and reduced a sentence that called for the priest to be laicised, two canon lawyers and a Church official told AP. Instead, the priests were sentenced to penalties including a lifetime of penance and prayer and removal from public ministry.


Pope reduces sanctions against some paedophile priests | CatholicHerald.co.uk
 

gijoe

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The premise for the thread is flawed. Priests don't enjoy diplomatic immunity - Holy See diplomats do just like any other accredited diplomat.
 

Vega1447

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The premise for the thread is flawed. Priests don't enjoy diplomatic immunity - Holy See diplomats do just like any other accredited diplomat.
The "Holy See" (FFS).

The Vatican City State is a historical relic.

Its ruler claims to be God's representative on Earth. God must really love child rapists.
 

RasherHash

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Looks like the RCC returning to the bad old days of moving priests around.

Imagine if this happened in an Irish school if a priest teacher was accused of abuse and the Vatican said he had diplomatic immunity. Another reason to secularise the state school system. We essentially have a foreign state, which is also a religion, controlling our primary schools and many of our Secondary Schools, which is also a violation of our sovereignty.
Religions shouldn't be allowed to run schools anymore, it sets a bad precident for new growing religions with their strange ideas and fanatical followers.
 

StarryPlough01

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What are your thoughts on the Vatican's use of Diplomatic Immunity to shield Priests such as case cited above by LT or via link here?
Vatican Uses Diplomatic Immunity To Shield Priest From Child Porn Charges


The Vatican is a country. There is nothing that can be done.

The Vatican allowed Australia to extradite Cardinal Pell. Pell would be wishing he had diplomatic immunity.



Vatican Uses Diplomatic Immunity To Shield Priest From Child Porn Charges


In short, despite pledges from Pope Francis to clean up the church, the horror continues, and the Catholic Church continues to protect and enable clergy members who rape and sexually abuse children.

And, as always, it is the children who suffer.
 

HereWeGoAgain

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Is it your contention that Priests do have diplomatic immunity?
Not all darkhorse, depends on their status in the hierarchy and the allegations being investigated.

This Priest enjoys diplomatic immunity - perhaps it might be a good idea to compare and contrast the treatment of other members of the clergy who did not enjoy such immunity and who were the subject of allegations of abuse - you will find that almost all ( within RCC) were shielded I expect.

For too long we suffered in Ireland as time and again, Priests within the Institution were shielded and sent to another parish without knowledge of allegations related to abuse of minors being made available to vulnerable communities, the Ryan Report makes for some sobering reading.

The article:

Vatican diplomat in US recalled over 'breach of child sex abuse images law'
Church officials are said to have refused request by US prosecutors for priest’s diplomatic immunity to be lifted


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/15/vatican-recalls-diplomat-us-child-abuse-images
 

StarryPlough01

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Not all darkhorse, depends on their status in the hierarchy and the allegations being investigated.

This Priest enjoys diplomatic immunity - perhaps it might be a good idea to compare and contrast the treatment of other members of the clergy who did not enjoy such immunity and who were the subject of allegations of abuse - you will find that almost all ( within RCC) were shielded I expect.

For too long we suffered in Ireland as time and again, Priests within the Institution were shielded and sent to another parish without knowledge of allegations related to abuse of minors being made available to vulnerable communities, the Ryan Report makes for some sobering reading.

The article:

Vatican diplomat in US recalled over 'breach of child sex abuse images law'
Church officials are said to have refused request by US prosecutors for priest’s diplomatic immunity to be lifted


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/15/vatican-recalls-diplomat-us-child-abuse-images


Fr Brendan Smyth immediately springs to mind. US lawyer Helen McGonagle. who was abused by this savage at 6 years old, accused Brady of having blood on his hands, having sat on knowledge of Smyth's sickening crimes for 35 years, thus allowing more innocent children to be sexually abused.
 
D

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Not all darkhorse, depends on their status in the hierarchy and the allegations being investigated.

This Priest enjoys diplomatic immunity - perhaps it might be a good idea to compare and contrast the treatment of other members of the clergy who did not enjoy such immunity and who were the subject of allegations of abuse - you will find that almost all ( within RCC) were shielded I expect.

For too long we suffered in Ireland as time and again, Priests within the Institution were shielded and sent to another parish without knowledge of allegations related to abuse of minors being made available to vulnerable communities, the Ryan Report makes for some sobering reading.

The article:

Vatican diplomat in US recalled over 'breach of child sex abuse images law'
Church officials are said to have refused request by US prosecutors for priest’s diplomatic immunity to be lifted


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/15/vatican-recalls-diplomat-us-child-abuse-images
Happens quite a bit HWGA
But really nothing to do with priests per se

https://www.nypost.com/2017/10/11/why-dirty-diplomats-can-literally-get-away-with-murder/
 

StarryPlough01

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At least the Vatican Court, under duress from US and Canada, handed down a prison sentence of 5 years [OP].
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Trouble is popes tend to 'pardon' people held in the three-cell vatican jail. The former butler who was sentenced to 18 months for stealing and releasing internal documents was pardoned after 2 months.

There is a suspicion that the 'holy see' tends to recall priests in difficulty with local law enforcement to the 'holy see' so that they can evade the otherwise long sentences they'd receive in those jurisdictions.

There was a high ranking priest from Boston who couldn't leave the precincts of the 'holy see' as he was wanted for questioning by Massachusetts authorities- the fellow was seen drinking champagne at the Irish 'embassy' to the 'holy see' subsequently.

Laws, I think his name was. Diplomatic immunity for diplomats is one thing but the 'holy see' goes well beyond that in protecting priests wanted for questioning.

The US authorities requested formally that this Capella character have his diplomatic immunity lifted, the Canadians had a warrant out for him and yet the vatican's action was to recall him under diplomatic immunity.

They are still at it.
 


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