Should Scotland Declare Independence?

owedtojoy

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Well, Catalonia did.

The UK Tories won 44% of UK votes, and 56% of the Parliamentary seats, in the General Election. That is interpreted as a massive mandate for Brexit. And maybe it is.

But the SNP won 45% of Scottish votes, and 80% of Scottish Parliamentary seats, but must tamely request a referendum from the English Prime Minister to fulfil its mandate.

Is that democratic?

Yes, there was a lost referendum on Independence in 2014 - but at that time that Scots were told that Independence would threaten their EU Membership.

Now, after voting to remain in the EU, they are being dragged out of it against their expressed national wish.

How democratic is that?

The SNP has won most Scottish seats in each of the last 4 Parliamentary Elections. But their mandate is ignored and disrespected. If you watch debates in the House of Commons, a notable feature is the contempt and derision that Tories have for Scottish Nationalists. Similarly, with the Tory media, especially the Murdoch press.

How democratic is that?

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has slapped down the Scottish request for another Independence Referendum. And it is clear that SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon must work through a process of gathering a broader Scottish coalition behind Independence, and start to lay the foundations of what must come to pass.

Scotland could call its own referendum - but it would probably be disrupted by the London Government, and therefore inconclusive. Even if the Independence vote was won, London would not recognise it. Why not go all the way?

Sometime in the next year, or the year after, Scotland may will have to declare itself Independent, should English intransigence continue. The Scottish Assembly could simply declare itself to be the Parliament of an Independent Scotland and formally dissolve the Union unilaterally, citing the refusal of the English to recognise Scotland's national aspirations. Or simply call a Parliament of all Scottish MPs, and go that route.

Other additional measures
  • Call upon the loyalty of Scots of all political opinions
  • Vote itself a Constituent Assembly, and write a Constitution, probably for a Constitutional Monarchy.
  • Take over local government, as the Irish did in 1919.
  • Create a new taxation system
Of curse, it would be messy, and have unforeseen consequences, maybe even dire ones. Violence could well ensue, as it has in Catalonia, perhaps deaths. "Velvet divorces", like Slovakia and the Czech Republic, are rare.

Dissolving the Union and declaring Independence would be an act of self-determination by Scotland on a par with the American Colonies in 1776, or Ireland in 1919. It would bring everything to a head, providing an irrevocable moment when everything might change. Planning for a Declaration of Independence is probably not what Nicola Sturgeon or her party would like - but they must surely be thinking along those lines.
 


ruserious

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They should declare that they are holding a Unilateral binding referendum to settle the issue once and for all and I’d wish them the very best.
 

blinding

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They should declare that they are holding a Unilateral binding referendum to settle the issue once and for all and I’d wish them the very best.
Didn't they ( SNP ) lose a referendum by 45% to 55% only a few short years ago .

The SNP got 45% at the General Election . Funnily enough thats the same as the losing % at the Independence Referendum .

The Scots recoiled at the thought of the Euro at the last referendum .

There is no certainty what so ever that the Independence side would win such a campaign . The SNP may not be as keen as it looks for another referendum . Another defeat so soon could be very damaging to them .
 

Rural

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I was talking to a lad about this yesterday (he's English), his attitude was that they should just piss off if they want to and I had to explain to him that a decision to hold another Referendum (if it was to be legally binding) had to come from Westminster.

Boris is balking at another Referendum as there really should be a generation between Referendums (about 12 to 15 years), but after the success of the SNP in this Election 2019, I feel that Boris should really give them another go at it, in good faith like.

And if the next Referendum is a decision to stay in the Union, then this time they wait a generation for the next one.

That would be fair.
 

blinding

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I was talking to a lad about this yesterday (he's English), his attitude was that they should just piss off if they want to and I had to explain to him that a decision to hold another Referendum (if it was to be legally binding) had to come from Westminster.

Boris is balking at another Referendum as there really should be a generation between Referendums (about 12 to 15 years), but after the success of the SNP in this Election 2019, I feel that Boris should really give them another go at it, in good faith like.

And if the next Referendum is a decision to stay in the Union, then this time they wait a generation for the next one.

That would be fair.
Didn't the SNP say the last referendum was a once in a generation referendum ?
 

McSlaggart

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Didn't they ( SNP ) lose a referendum by 45% to 55% only a few short years ago .

The SNP got 45% at the General Election . Funnily enough thats the same as the losing % at the Independence Referendum .

The Scots recoiled at the thought of the Euro at the last referendum .

There is no certainty what so ever that the Independence side would win such a campaign . The SNP may not be as keen as it looks for another referendum . Another defeat so soon could be very damaging to them .

The SNP will be well aware of why they lost last time and will need to come up with working solutions to address the issue. The biggest issue for the scots is how do they sort out the border controls ?
 

Newrybhoy

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They should go for it.

I'm sure when no salaries get paid,no benefits arrive and the border with their biggest market is closed to them,nevermind that they will have no currency and no entrance to the EU,it will seem like a great idea.

Go for it Sturgeon.
 

Rural

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Didn't the SNP say the last referendum was a once in a generation referendum ?
Did they?

All I'm saying is that it would be good sport to acknowledge the success of the SNP in Election 2019. There's no onus on Boris to do this, but it would be a good thing to do and this time (if it happens) to not interfere like Cameron did the last time out.
 

blinding

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Did they?

All I'm saying is that it would be good sport to acknowledge the success of the SNP in Election 2019. There's no onus on Boris to do this, but it would be a good thing to do and this time (if it happens) to not interfere like Cameron did the last time out.
Won't there be Scottish Parliament Elections fairly soon . Lets see if they can get above 45% there .

And I'm am pretty sure the SNP did say it was a once in a generation chance .
 

Newrybhoy

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Won't there be Scottish Parliament Elections fairly soon . Lets see if they can get above 45% there .

And I'm am pretty sure the SNP did say it was a once in a generation chance .

You're welcome.
 

blinding

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Rural

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Thank you kindly . Some people want me to be their researcher . Sometimes , I do it and other times I don't .

Thanks .
When you make the claims you do the bloody research - I have made claims on here and I always felt it was up to me to back them up.

As I say, Boris doesn't have to do this, but I think that it would be generous to give in on this occasion.
 

blinding

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When you make the claims you do the bloody research - I have made claims on here and I always felt it was up to me to back them up.

As I say, Boris doesn't have to do this, but I think that it would be generous to give in on this occasion.
I am not your researcher and I was right as I usually am . You see I have a memory and am a student of politics . Knowledge learned and processed . Can you afford to pay for a researcher ?
 

Surkov

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Well, Catalonia did.

The UK Tories won 44% of UK votes, and 56% of the Parliamentary seats, in the General Election. That is interpreted as a massive mandate for Brexit. And maybe it is.

But the SNP won 45% of Scottish votes, and 80% of Scottish Parliamentary seats, but must tamely request a referendum from the English Prime Minister to fulfil its mandate.

Is that democratic?

Yes, there was a lost referendum on Independence in 2014 - but at that time that Scots were told that Independence would threaten their EU Membership.

Now, after voting to remain in the EU, they are being dragged out of it against their expressed national wish.

How democratic is that?

The SNP has won most Scottish seats in each of the last 4 Parliamentary Elections. But their mandate is ignored and disrespected. If you watch debates in the House of Commons, a notable feature is the contempt and derision that Tories have for Scottish Nationalists. Similarly, with the Tory media, especially the Murdoch press.

How democratic is that?

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has slapped down the Scottish request for another Independence Referendum. And it is clear that SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon must work through a process of gathering a broader Scottish coalition behind Independence, and start to lay the foundations of what must come to pass.

Scotland could call its own referendum - but it would probably be disrupted by the London Government, and therefore inconclusive. Even if the Independence vote was won, London would not recognise it. Why not go all the way?

Sometime in the next year, or the year after, Scotland may will have to declare itself Independent, should English intransigence continue. The Scottish Assembly could simply declare itself to be the Parliament of an Independent Scotland and formally dissolve the Union unilaterally, citing the refusal of the English to recognise Scotland's national aspirations. Or simply call a Parliament of all Scottish MPs, and go that route.

Other additional measures
  • Call upon the loyalty of Scots of all political opinions
  • Vote itself a Constituent Assembly, and write a Constitution, probably for a Constitutional Monarchy.
  • Take over local government, as the Irish did in 1919.
  • Create a new taxation system
Of curse, it would be messy, and have unforeseen consequences, maybe even dire ones. Violence could well ensue, as it has in Catalonia, perhaps deaths. "Velvet divorces", like Slovakia and the Czech Republic, are rare.

Dissolving the Union and declaring Independence would be an act of self-determination by Scotland on a par with the American Colonies in 1776, or Ireland in 1919. It would bring everything to a head, providing an irrevocable moment when everything might change. Planning for a Declaration of Independence is probably not what Nicola Sturgeon or her party would like - but they must surely be thinking along those lines.
Polls say that majority of Scots NOT in favour of independence. Plus, the next ref. will happen post-Brexit, meaning SI becomes a much harder sell due to economic realities.

Instead of immediately dreaming up radical rebellions... wouldn't a more moral direction be to reflect on why the majority of the UK people want out of the EU, and then apply that knowledge by seeking to reform the EU?

This unquestioning worship of the EU must cease. It very badly needs to be reformed. And that means stripping it of most of its power.
 

owedtojoy

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Didn't they ( SNP ) lose a referendum by 45% to 55% only a few short years ago .

The SNP got 45% at the General Election . Funnily enough thats the same as the losing % at the Independence Referendum .

The Scots recoiled at the thought of the Euro at the last referendum .

There is no certainty what so ever that the Independence side would win such a campaign . The SNP may not be as keen as it looks for another referendum . Another defeat so soon could be very damaging to them .
Read the OP.

The SNP vote in Scotland is larger than the Tory UK vote, and the SNP won a higher percentage of Scottish seats than the Tories did of UK seats. Yet, self-stytled "democrats" like yourself blather about the Tories' "mandate", but not the SNP's.

Maybe you should go back to Troll-land, ask for new instructions, and re-boot.

The Scots were lied to in 2014, and now they know it.

The least Boris Johnson could so is acknowledge the SNP mandate, and call a new referendum.
 

Sync

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There are practical issues which can’t be escaped no matter what Sturgeon did.

1. any internal referendum run by the Scottish independent movement will be ignored by the British citizens living there who reasonably say they’ll only vote for a referendum approved by the uk govt. That calls into question the legitimacy of any referendum run by the SNP. It’s effectively a coup.

2. It kills any move to get into the EU. Spain, Belgium,Italy will never ever sign off on it. They won’t be an accession country. They’ll be nothing.

3. The UN won’t recognise it either given the UK influence there

4. You carry out the coup, then what. They couldn’t answer the “then what” bit when there was a legitimate referendum. They haven’t even begun to answer what would happen without sign off from the UK.

what’s your currency? What’s your movement into the UK like? Who do you trade with? What currency do you use? How will you address the massive economic imbalance that sees London supporting Scotland to such a huge extent.

They need to address all that stuff. Or just go with the pitch last time of “it’ll sort itself out, independence is its own reward”.
 

owedtojoy

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Polls say that majority of Scots NOT in favour of independence. Plus, the next ref. will happen post-Brexit, meaning SI becomes a much harder sell due to economic realities.

Instead of immediately dreaming up radical rebellions... wouldn't a more moral direction be to reflect on why the majority of the UK people want out of the EU, and then apply that knowledge by seeking to reform the EU?

This unquestioning worship of the EU must cease. It very badly needs to be reformed. And that means stripping it of most of its power.
Now the Russian Trolls are saying that the future should be decided by opinion polls, not by democratic decisions!

Well, raise me rent!.... Trump should resign then. The polls say he is shyte.

Maybe Russian Trolls should piss off from the thread ... they are not even posting their own honest opinions.
 

owedtojoy

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There are practical issues which can’t be escaped no matter what Sturgeon did.

1. any internal referendum run by the Scottish independent movement will be ignored by the British citizens living there who reasonably say they’ll only vote for a referendum approved by the uk govt. That calls into question the legitimacy of any referendum run by the SNP. It’s effectively a coup.

2. It kills any move to get into the EU. Spain, Belgium,Italy will never ever sign off on it. They won’t be an accession country. They’ll be nothing.

3. The UN won’t recognise it either given the UK influence there

4. You carry out the coup, then what. They couldn’t answer the “then what” bit when there was a legitimate referendum. They haven’t even begun to answer what would happen without sign off from the UK.

what’s your currency? What’s your movement into the UK like? Who do you trade with? What currency do you use? How will you address the massive economic imbalance that sees London supporting Scotland to such a huge extent.

They need to address all that stuff. Or just go with the pitch last time of “it’ll sort itself out, independence is its own reward”.
The 1916 Rising was a coup. Israel declared Independence in 1948, and that was a coup also.

Few countries ever won Independence by following the "rules". The game is rigged, like it was against Ireland in 1919

A country that seriously desired Independence has to consider kicking over the table, and taking the fight onto the streets. Catalonia has passed that point, and the end is not clear.

And it is strange how opinions change once forces from the central Government start to push people around. I can really see the Scots getting their backs up when English police and soldiers arrive on their streets.

I am not saying Scotland is there yet, but if may get there, if English intransigence continues. And the Scots may have to decide just how much they want to be an independent country.
 

Rural

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Read the OP.

The SNP vote in Scotland is larger than the Tory UK vote, and the SNP won a higher percentage of Scottish seats than the Tories did of UK seats. Yet, self-stytled "democrats" like yourself blather about the Tories' "mandate", but not the SNP's.

Maybe you should go back to Troll-land, ask for new instructions, and re-boot.

The Scots were lied to in 2014, and now they know it.

The least Boris Johnson could so is acknowledge the SNP mandate, and call a new referendum.
It's his researcher's day off, give him a break. ;)
 

owedtojoy

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The SNP will be well aware of why they lost last time and will need to come up with working solutions to address the issue. The biggest issue for the scots is how do they sort out the border controls ?
They just declare they will abide by the Free Trade Agreement Boris Johnson will have made with the EU - from the EU point of view, of course. :ROFLMAO:
 


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