Should the Roma have their own Homeland?

hiker

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I know precious little about these people but there are here, there and , indeed, everywhere.

They do not appear to come from any one particular country. Is there a Roma homeland?
Can they be accomadated in an area they could call their own?

There is the danger that they could be ghettoised. there is the danger they might end up like the american natives, in reservations in out of the way places with little or no services.

Any views on this one/

No rascist trolls need apply, thanks. ;)
 


Bobert

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It's my understanding that they originated in the Balkans and were displaced over time.
 

johnfás

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Interestingly, according to Wiki there are more Roma in Brazil than Romania, according to official statistics anyway.
 

johnfás

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If they were all like the photo Wikipedia provides they could make my garden the homeland :shock:

 
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Bobert said:
It's my understanding that they originated in the Balkans and were displaced over time.
huh, I thought it was India!

It would be an intersting country if they had one! The national symbol would be ATMs, national past time would be begging and the anthem would be that horrible "please pleeease peasssee my babbbby plessawee"

Was this a trolling or non trolling thread again?
 

JCSkinner

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johnfás said:
If they were all like the photo Wikipedia provides they could make my garden the homeland :shock:

Wikipedia isn't really representative, is it? In my experience, they tend to look more like this:


As for a homeland, anywhere far away from me is good. I don't have a problem at all in admitting I don't want them in my country. And here's why:
http://skinflicks.blogspot.com/2007/06/ ... taxes.html

Or perhaps, we could go for the option that suited the Jews. We could give them some Arab country and kick all the locals out. I suggest Syria. It's the furthest away from Ireland!
 

Bobert

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PaintingMedium said:
Bobert said:
It's my understanding that they originated in the Balkans and were displaced over time.
huh, I thought it was India!

It would be an intersting country if they had one! The national symbol would be ATMs, national past time would be begging and the anthem would be that horrible "please pleeease peasssee my babbbby plessawee"

Was this a trolling or non trolling thread again?
Well, according to my Yugoslavian great-uncle, the Romas came from around there. But then he did once shoot his TV when Jimmy Carter was on it, he served in Tito's navy and then he fled across Europe to Ireland during the war...
 

The Earl of Desmond

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Roma is a politically correct term for Knacker/Traveller - the fact of the matter is their claim to have a unique culture is totally bogus. All of our ancesters lived in caves and mudhuts at one point then moved up the scale but do we demand to live in a mud hut now because it's part of our 'tradition'. Do we f**k.

Humans evolve and improve and Romas want to remain living a lifestyle from the middle ages - violence, sexual abusive, thieving and all the rest. It's high time they coped on and got with the real world. This marrying off girls, the drinking, the lack of education etc etc are disgraceful and it's not because they are denied access to things it's because they don't want access - they prefer wictim mode like the Aborgininals.

But if I had to pick a homeland - for some reason Offaly is springing to mind with close historical and cultural ties with Tuam.
 

Bobert

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The Earl of Desmond said:
Roma is a politically correct term for Knacker/Traveller - the fact of the matter is their claim to have a unique culture is totally bogus. All of our ancesters lived in caves and mudhuts at one point then moved up the scale but do we demand to live in a mud hut now because it's part of our 'tradition'. Do we f**k.

Humans evolve and improve and Romas want to remain living a lifestyle from the middle ages - violence, sexual abusive, thieving and all the rest. It's high time they coped on and got with the real world. This marrying off girls, the drinking, the lack of education etc etc are disgraceful and it's not because they are denied access to things it's because they don't want access - they prefer wictim mode like the Aborgininals.

But if I had to pick a homeland - for some reason Offaly is springing to mind with close historical and cultural ties with Tuam.
You're confusing Romas with Travelers there I'm afraid. Travelers are people who were displaced during the famine. And secondly, like **** are you sending Romas to Galway, there's a million odd islands in the pacific...
 

Zyklon B

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Apparently the [ur=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_people]Roma people[/url] were originally Hindus from India. About 2.2 million in India, the 'Banjara'.

From Wiki:
The cause of the Roma diaspora is unknown. However, the most probable conclusion is that the Roma were part of the military in Northern India. When there were repeated raids by Mahmud of Ghazni and these soldiers were defeated, they were moved west with their families into the Byzantine Empire. This occurred between 1000 and 1050 CE.

47.3% of Roma men carry Y chromosomes of haplogroup H-M82 which is otherwise rare outside of the Indian subcontinent. Mitochondrial haplogroup M, most common in Indian subjects and rare outside Southern Asia, accounts for nearly 30% of Roma people. A more detailed study of Polish Roma shows this to be of the M5 lineage, which is specific to India. Moreover, a form of the inherited disorder congenital myasthenia is carried by around 4% of the Roma population. This form of the disorder, caused by the 1267delG mutation, is otherwise only known in subjects of Indian ancestry. This is considered unambiguous proof that all Roma are descended from a single founding population, originating from the Indian subcontinent around 40 generations ago, which subsequently split into the subgroups we see today.

The Banjara people, numbering around 2,274,000 in India, are Gypsies, who claim that they, too, are descended from the Rajputs, and that many of their ancestors, left India through the Himalayas and never returned. For this reason, the Banjara are considered related to the Romani people. Many historians believe that the Muslim conquerors of northern India took the Roma as slaves and marched them home over the unforgiving terrain of Central Asia, taking great tolls on the population and thereby giving rise to such designations as the Hindu Kush mountains of present-day Pakistan and Afghanistan. Mahmud of Ghazni reportedly took 500,000 prisoners during a Turkish/Persian invasion of Sindh and Punjab.

Others suggest the Roma were originally low-caste Hindus recruited into an army of mercenaries, granted warrior caste status, and sent westward to resist Islamic military expansion. In either case, upon arrival, they became a distinct community. Why the Roma did not return to India, choosing instead to travel west into Europe, is an enigma, but may relate to military service under the Muslims.

Contemporary scholars have suggested that one of the first written references to the Roma, under the term "Atsinganoi", (Greek), dates from the Byzantine era during a time of famine in the 9th century. In 800 CE, Saint Athanasia gave food to "foreigners called the Atsinganoi" near Thrace. Later, in 803 CE, Theophanes the Confessor wrote that Emperor Nikephoros I had the help of the "Atsinganoi" to put down a riot with their "knowledge of magic".

Around 1360, an independent Romani fiefdom (called the Feudum Acinganorum) was established in Corfu and became "a settled community and an important and established part of the economy."

By the 14th century, the Roma had reached the Balkans; by 1424 CE, Germany; and by the 16th century, Scotland and Sweden. Some Roma migrated from Persia through North Africa, reaching Europe via Spain in the 15th century. The two currents met in France. Roma began immigrating to the United States in colonial times, with small groups in Virginia and French Louisiana. Larger-scale immigration began in the 1860s, with groups of Romnichal from Britain. The largest number immigrated in the early 1900s, mainly from the Vlax group of Kalderash. Many Roma also settled in Latin America.

There are about 15 million Roma/Gypsies, mostly in Greece, Turkey and Romania.
 

hiker

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So then its fair to say that they are a definative cultural group.

they never assimilated because they had their own culture and seem to have held it together for 1000 years.

Given that this is the case, how do we "move them on" culturally?
It would appear that they have reached a standstill with almost no social or economic advancement for many centuries.

Is it desirable to integrate them? Probably not.

It would appear that education is the best route forward for these people. I would suggest that compulsory education for young Roma might have some affect whilst protecting their heritage or whatever is left of it.

It would need to EU wide in order to work but it would probably solve the anti-social aspects of their culture in the shortest time.

What we would be left with, of course, is an educated, mobile nation with no homeland of their own. My guess is that they would begin to demand that very homeland as soon as they become aware that they should have one.

Where would it be?
 
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hiker said:
So then its fair to say that they are a definative cultural group.

they never assimilated because they had their own culture and seem to have held it together for 1000 years.

Given that this is the case, how do we "move them on" culturally?
It would appear that they have reached a standstill with almost no social or economic advancement for many centuries.

Is it desirable to integrate them? Probably not.

It would appear that education is the best route forward for these people. I would suggest that compulsory education for young Roma might have some affect whilst protecting their heritage or whatever is left of it.

It would need to EU wide in order to work but it would probably solve the anti-social aspects of their culture in the shortest time.

What we would be left with, of course, is an educated, mobile nation with no homeland of their own. My guess is that they would begin to demand that very homeland as soon as they become aware that they should have one.

Where would it be?
Are they just gonna spin their finger on a globe and where ever it stops, declare it their homeland? Or are they going to declare a homeland where ever the Big Issue has the biggest amount of readers?
 

hiker

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As the world gets to be a little bit smaller every year, its probably worth looking at this phenomenon that is Romani.

There are not many peoples who are culturally different to others who have no homeland of their own. Even the Kurds have a place if not a seperate national territory.

The Tibetans have a place but not seperate national territory. Because they have a territory that they have used for hundreds of years we can identify with them easier.

The Roma dont have any such historic territory from what I can see. They appear to be true nomads. Maybe Europe's last nomads.

Come on guys. Think outside the box a bit here.
 

The Earl of Desmond

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hiker said:
As the world gets to be a little bit smaller every year, its probably worth looking at this phenomenon that is Romani.

There are not many peoples who are culturally different to others who have no homeland of their own. Even the Kurds have a place if not a seperate national territory.

The Tibetans have a place but not seperate national territory. Because they have a territory that they have used for hundreds of years we can identify with them easier.

The Roma dont have any such historic territory from what I can see. They appear to be true nomads. Maybe Europe's last nomads.

Come on guys. Think outside the box a bit here.
So then why shouldn't they be part of society like the rest of us - you know work, go to school, pay taxes, not marry girls off at puberty, not have disgusting domestic violence rates, illiteracy rates etc etc.

The Roma in previous generations lived on their wits going from country house or village to village - now they just live off the state and contribute nothing at all to society. Time for this nonsense to end.
 

hiker

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The Earl of Desmond said:
So then why shouldn't they be part of society like the rest of us
Because they are nothing like us; not socially, economically, culturally. They are about as alien as you can get and stll be european.
And they are european. Its not Ireland's problem; it's europe's.
The solution will be a european one.

Of course the crime is appaling. And the begging and all the other socially taboo things they do but looking angry and shouting "get a fking job" wont change a single thing.

So show how innovative you are. Show me how brilliant the Irish political mind is.

These people work on the premise that if you are disgusting enough, you will left alone to do anything you want. Its quite brilliant, in devious way. These are not stupid people, not by a long shot.

So where is the point of engagement between "normal" society and Roma society? Where is the point of contact?
 

The Earl of Desmond

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hiker said:
The Earl of Desmond said:
So then why shouldn't they be part of society like the rest of us
Because they are nothing like us; not socially, economically, culturally. They are about as alien as you can get and stll be european.
And they are european. Its not Ireland's problem; it's europe's.
The solution will be a european one.

Of course the crime is appaling. And the begging and all the other socially taboo things they do but looking angry and shouting "get a fking job" wont change a single thing.

So show how innovative you are. Show me how brilliant the Irish political mind is.

These people work on the premise that if you are disgusting enough, you will left alone to do anything you want. Its quite brilliant, in devious way. These are not stupid people, not by a long shot.

So where is the point of engagement between "normal" society and Roma society? Where is the point of contact?
Call yourself a PD! You realise the PDs of the 19th century and of the darkest days of Catholic oppression in Ireland were the ones putting people in the workhouse during the famine in case - heaven forbid - anyone offer the fying help for nothing and far better to lock up a women than ever admit she was raped by a priest or her father or uncle or neighbour or even worse have consentual sex with a guy she loved and who loved her and might just have made a family if given half a chance.

So to answer the point about Roma I do not agree that they are a special cultural case - the only reason they are identifiable now is because of their collective ability to rob and swindle and the sexual and alcohol issues - they are exactly like Irish travellers even if they don't start from the same point. You saw them i nthe camp outside Rome - when I say camp it was full of static mobile homes and I can think of worse places to live - is there something wrong iwth them that can't understand the link between poverty and too many children? Why are they immune from having to keep their homes clean and tidy, is it really so hard for someone sitting on their ass all day to wipe their child face with a cloth every now and again etc etc.

Where exactly do you draw the line between helping people but those people taking responsibility for themselves. Why is it only middle class people have to make life choices based on their circumstances in order to achieve their goals and yet poor people are not covered by the same rules.

The reason for poor people is poor people. Too many children is I would say 80% of the problem. Tackle that and the rest follows.
 
S

Starkadder

There was ,apparently, a plan to give the Roma their own homeland in the 19th century, probably
dreamed up by the Roma equivalent of Theodore Herzl or Marcus Garvey. Now,however,I
don't think it would be practical-a better option for them would to try to assimilate into
settled society and get houses and jobs.
 

hiker

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The Earl of Desmond said:
The reason for poor people is poor people. Too many children is I would say 80% of the problem. Tackle that and the rest follows.
I erased the silly rant and was left with this.

hmmm

Are you saying that enforced contraception or abortion of Roma females is some sort of civilised answer? I fear, Earl of Desmond that your name tag is more relevent to you that you can guess.

What I'm looking for is innovation and flair.

For example, in from Rome to Britain, whenever a governing power wished to subdue a group that were causing them problems, they invited them into their inner circle.
You, as the Earl of Desmond should realise that the first thing is to find a leader, any leader and make him or her rich. Give them positions of power and influence, let them get a taste for it and then threaten to take it away. But you allow them to keep their power and influence if they promise to do things your way.

So you take the main Roma leadership, you enrich them up to normal western standards and then threaten to take it back if they do not curb the activities of their people.
The Romans did it and Elizabeth I did it in Ireland. Worked a treat.

Now this may seem a bit cold and calculated but I beleive the end justifies the means.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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Bobert said:
It's my understanding that they originated in the Balkans and were displaced over time.
Wrong. They originate from Northern India, which they left in the 1300's during the Muslim invasions of India.
 


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