Should the Roma have their own Homeland?

Bobert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,071
FutureTaoiseach said:
Bobert said:
It's my understanding that they originated in the Balkans and were displaced over time.
Wrong. They originate from Northern India, which they left in the 1300's during the Muslim invasions of India.
Yup, Wikipedia has clarified that.
 


hiker

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
1,950
Bobert said:
FutureTaoiseach said:
Bobert said:
It's my understanding that they originated in the Balkans and were displaced over time.
Wrong. They originate from Northern India, which they left in the 1300's during the Muslim invasions of India.
Yup, Wikipedia has clarified that.

I think its safe to say that repatriation to India is not an option. :)

From my understanding of it, there are several million Roma in the EU. Is there a spokesperson for Roma in europe at present?
Is there an organisation that represents them?
 

hiker

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
1,950
The Rroma

The Rroma are also variously known as Roma, Gypsies, Tsiganes, Tsigan, Gitanos or Gitans, as well as Sinti, Cale, and many other names.

Rroma are Europeans having arrived in Europe in the Byzantine Empire in the IXth century. They are thus by far not the latest arrivals in Europe, for for example, the Magyars (Hungarians) arrived around the same time in Europe.

They are a true transnational European minority, with 10-12 million Rroma living in Europe, with a distinct culture, language, traditions. IN many countries, they are well integrated, and part of society. This was especially true in the Balkan pre-nationalistic wars.

In their entire history in Europe, contrary to all other invaders such as the Germans, Slavs, Bulgars, Magyars, etc., they never even tried or aspired to have their own country, much less even to conquer one by force. They settled in most European regions, this much before the countries as we know them today existed.

They are Europeans, at home in their country, often proud citizen, but nevertheless Rroma



Lifted from this link http://www.rroma.org/
 

The Earl of Desmond

Active member
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Messages
232
hiker said:
Bobert said:
FutureTaoiseach said:
Bobert said:
It's my understanding that they originated in the Balkans and were displaced over time.
Wrong. They originate from Northern India, which they left in the 1300's during the Muslim invasions of India.
Yup, Wikipedia has clarified that.

I think its safe to say that repatriation to India is not an option. :)

From my understanding of it, there are several million Roma in the EU. Is there a spokesperson for Roma in europe at present?
Is there an organisation that represents them?
So if the Muslims invaded Indai should the Muslims be kicked out and sent back to whereever they came from - I mean that's what they want to do to Israel so I don't see why they shouldn't be held to their own standard?
 

hiker

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
1,950
The Earl of Desmond said:
So if the Muslims invaded Indai should the Muslims be kicked out and sent back to whereever they came from - I mean that's what they want to do to Israel so I don't see why they shouldn't be held to their own standard?
I think you are a bit lost and confused now, my dear earl. :)
An early night might be in order. We'll talk again tomorrow.
 

Earnest

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
412
merle haggard said:
if they had their own country theyd have nobody to beg off , as Roma very notoriously and traditionally dont give money to people begging in the streets . Its against their ancient customs .
Given the problems caused by Jews going back to the country their ancestors came from, is there any point in discussing a similar solution for Roma? There is simply no available land for a new country.

Those who complain about Roma begging should remember that if they are from Romania they are not allowed to work here without a work permit, yet they are entitled to come. So how are they to live? If no-one gave them money, they would stop coming.
 

Thac0man

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
6,444
Twitter
twit taa woo
The issue of the Roma is not an easy one. For a start the Roma actually have elected poltical representation in Romania. But a fat lot of good that does them. What is it the Roma actually want? There seems to be little they need that they cannot and will not willingly take from others in society.

What is the point of the Roma having their own homeland when they would simply up sticks and go somewhere else. The fact is no matter where Roma are they live in the shadow and at the fringes of other peoples societies. There is no getting around the fact the Roma do not integrate and have no wish to. They exist on the fringes and make a living there. The perception that Roma contribute nothing and are a parasitic race is not far from the truth. Thats a shocking thing to say, but I think sadly close to reality.

I should point out, it was not always thus. The Nazies rounded up and exterminated what seemed to be a sizeable population of settled and well integrated Roma in the lands they occupied. This decimation of a Roma community that had taken root seems to have led to the current social and cultural low that the Roma are experiencing.

People throughout Europe have taken a dim view of Roma, not because of any particular aspect of their lives or who they are, but because much of what they percieve as negative about Roma stems the Romas apparent utter distain of non-Roma.

Violance, theft, intimidation etc etc etc, the list goes on. And all of it perpetrated without a second thought by Roma against non-Roma. Not a shred of conscience seems to exist. Roma themselves seem almost incapable of making contact on a humane level with non-Roma - there just seems to be no will there at all. No spark. I find that most worrying of all.

I honestly don't know where we could start the work of integrating the Roma, but teaching them respect for others would seem to be a good place. But that in itself is difficult considering the violance practiced against Roma women as par of the course in Roma society. Children as we have seen here are just another resource for Roma men to use to get ahead in the closed Roma society.

Their male dominated, clannish Roma society is out of sync with the modern world and the further the world moves on the further the Roma seem to receed.
 

JCSkinner

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Messages
1,247
Website
skinflicks.blogspot.com
hiker said:
The Tibetans have a place but not seperate national territory. Because they have a territory that they have used for hundreds of years we can identify with them easier.
The Tibetans also have their own language, religion, cultural practices and they had sovereignty until 1950.
Perhaps what you meant to say was that the Tibetans have a national territory that is under illegal occupation by a neighbouring neo-colonial totalitarian regime.

Edit: I see you're from Donabate, Hiker. Am I right in thinking that's where the M50 gypsies shored up when they snuck back into Ireland?
 

froglet

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
26
I don't think we can fix everything that we don't like. We had the Travellers, and still do, creating bedlam in estates around the country with their anti-social behaviour. A family of settled Travellers I sort of know keep their children away from school for 3/4 days a week. The father was arrested the other night for beating his wife up, in a local pub. I tried to make friends but gave up in the end because they always asked me for money.

We have Romas here in this small country town. They are not liked. I find it hard to understand them begging with their small infants, thats awful and I thought it was against the law, but it goes on all the time.

They are what they are. I wonder if anyone has studied them, talked to them, asked them what they want. Maybe they don't want anything different from what they have? I don't even know what if any religion they are? Do they attend a place of worship if they have a religion?
 

hiker

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
1,950
JCSkinner said:
hiker said:
The Tibetans have a place but not seperate national territory. Because they have a territory that they have used for hundreds of years we can identify with them easier.
Testicles.
The Tibetans also have their own language, religion, cultural practices and they had sovereignty until 1950.
Perhaps what you meant to say was that the Tibetans have a national territory that is under illegal occupation by a neighbouring neo-colonial totalitarian regime.
Completely agree but they do not as far as I can have a government, head of state that is recognised by the worlds governments etc etc.
Dalai Lama is a truely great man but he has not been in Tibet for decades.

Tibetans are far more culturally advanced than the Roma. Socially they integrate with Chinese much better than Roma do with Europeans.

The Roma Question is 10-15 millions people large. There are three times more Roma than Irish.

The solution must be at a European level because these people are so dispersed with no focus point. Romania may be home to many but what kind of a home?
They were slaves for 4 centuries up until 100 years ago.

Look at the chip we carry on our shoulder over the British occupation. Whats it like for Roma?

I have a funny feeling that the Roma Question will be on the European Election Agenda next year.

Indeed it should be on the European Election Agenda in 2009 in every country in the EU.
 

hiker

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
1,950
JCSkinner said:
Edit: I see you're from Donabate, Hiker. Am I right in thinking that's where the M50 gypsies shored up when they snuck back into Ireland?

Its widely discussed on a local forum but I have declined to enter the discussion so far. I have had no contact or dealings with them to date and am reluctant to enter a discussion on specific local issues about them.

This thread is a more general approach to the issue from a wider, European level without being judgemental in any way.
 

JCSkinner

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Messages
1,247
Website
skinflicks.blogspot.com
hiker said:
JCSkinner said:
Edit: I see you're from Donabate, Hiker. Am I right in thinking that's where the M50 gypsies shored up when they snuck back into Ireland?

Its widely discussed on a local forum but I have declined to enter the discussion so far. I have had no contact or dealings with them to date and am reluctant to enter a discussion on specific local issues about them.

This thread is a more general approach to the issue from a wider, European level without being judgemental in any way.
I'm against homelands, if we're discussing the macro issue. They're ghettos writ large, especially when they're artificially created.
Plus there's always someone displaced who has greater right to be there. Look at Israel, for example.
I'm not particularly in favour of the multicultural approach when any of the cultures involved either refuse to respect the others (fundamentalists of various religions, for example) or when some of the cultures are too impoverished (culturally, though that often goes hand in hand with financially) to deserve parity with the others.
The Roma fall into this latter category, as do the Travelling Irish.
It is not 'culture' to live in dereliction and squalor, as the Roma do. It is not 'culture' to survive by begging and squatting as Roma do. It is not 'culture' to abuse their children through denying them education, hygiene or proper nutrition, as Roma do.
All these things may be their traditions. But they amount to a culture that deserves eradication on human rights grounds, not respect.
Primarily, these people are Romanians in dire need of education. That makes them Romania's problem in my book.
 

FutureTaoiseach

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
7,980
Website
greatdearleader.blogspot.com
By definition it would seem strange to give a nomadic people like the Roma a country, given that they don't want to settle and as such would probably leave it anyway.
 

Trampas

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 30, 2007
Messages
14,876
hiker said:
I know precious little about these people but there are here, there and , indeed, everywhere.

They do not appear to come from any one particular country. Is there a Roma homeland?
Can they be accomadated in an area they could call their own?

There is the danger that they could be ghettoised. there is the danger they might end up like the american natives, in reservations in out of the way places with little or no services.

Any views on this one/

No rascist trolls need apply, thanks. ;)
Looks like your attempt to circumscribe the area of debate has ended in failure. Let that be a lesson to you. ;)
 

froglet

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
26
I was not being racist when I wrote can parasites have a culture by the way. I'm simply curious as to how one defines a group as having a 'culture' when they contribute nothing to the society they share. What cultural aspects do the Romas bring with them? when I lived in Dublin I was one person out of about 100 who rang the police when the Romas placed a very young girl whose leg has obviously been recently amputated outside Marks and Spencers. She was so pale that her face was as white as the plaster on the stump of her leg. It was horrible. Myself and two other women sat with her and someone gave her a bottle of water to drink. She was so ill. The police came and then Roma adults turned up and they were allowed to take her away. We all objected, but the cops told us there was nothing they could do. It broke my heart and the anger in Grafton Street was palpable that lunch-time. We were all furious. What kind of people would do something like that. That child had only recently, very recently by the look of the plaster on her leg come out of hospital and there she was, propped up to be used to get money for...well for whatever.

I am not a racist, but neither am I a fool. If we do not speak out about something being wrong, then we are as bad as we ever were, keeping quiet about incest, and abuse by priests etc. I dread to think what happens to the kids and women when they return from a day's begging. Do they get beaten up if they have not collected enough? Its bloody awful. The Africans and the Poles and other Eastern Europeans have got a culture, a vibrant exciting culture. The Romas do not.
 

Squire Allworthy

Well-known member
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
1,404
Let them wander and no they don't need a nation. If they want to return home that home is India. If you don't like begging don't give money. They only do it if it pays.

I have nothing against people who want to spend their lives travelling provided they realise they have to comply with the rules of society and they have a duty of care to their families. There are quite a few decent people who travel, some on barges some on camper vans, so don't assume. That said there are some who are base criminals and their life style makes it easier to evade justice, and like all criminals they can cause real damage and cause suffering.
 

LTGuy

Active member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
118
Bobert said:
It's my understanding that they originated in the Balkans and were displaced over time.
You are wrong on that. They originated in India, and their language is very much polluted, but still distinctly of Indic provenance. The very name "Roma" gives clue to their origins - it means "a caste of dancers and musicians". And that is true - they have fabulous musical legacy (songs and dances); unfortunately they have no other skills, so when their service is not needed they are reduced to theft and begging. The English name "Gypsie" is based on a wrong assumption they come from Egypt, it is proven now to be a wrong theory.
 

LTGuy

Active member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
118
Thac0man said:
The fact is no matter where Roma are they live in the shadow and at the fringes of other peoples societies. There is no getting around the fact the Roma do not integrate and have no wish to. They exist on the fringes and make a living there. The perception that Roma contribute nothing and are a parasitic race is not far from the truth. Thats a shocking thing to say, but I think sadly close to reality.
And now substitute word "Roma" with Albanian! ;)
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top