Should There Be Holocaust Laws For Ireland?


Lumpy Talbot

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No
Interestingly part of the rat-run for escaping Nazis involved Geneva. They were issued false papers in Rome in some notable cases which allowed them to access refugee documentation from the Red Cross in Geneva and from there it was off to Bolivia and Ecuador- anywhere that didn't at the time have extradition arrangements with the Allies.
 

RasherHash

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I think it is too dangerous to have 'Holocaust Laws' as in reality they would be an attempt to shut down debate and only allow one version of historical events.

That does not make me a holocaust denier. I'm well aware of the horrors of nazi Germany. It is just that 'Holocaust Laws' give oxygen to the wrong sort of people who would then take such laws as useful precedent in an attempt to get their narrative accepted as the only one and any dissenting voices as illegal.

The downside of such restriction is dangerous.

Holocaust deniers can be taken on in debate and don't tend to last long outside their own echo chambers so that should continue to be the case.
There is no debate, that is the problem, people who question the holocaust are persecuted and imprisoned, it is a foremost scandal of the 20/21st centuries.

[video=youtube;zz6Vbl-TWgI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz6Vbl-TWgI[/video]
 

Golah veNekhar

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He could have followed the Swiss, who closed the german embassy because it no longer represented a viable state. Much better than playing to a tiny gallery.
Dev was an old fashioned gentleman who followed decorum. He was not playing to any gallery he obeyed etiquette.
 

McTell

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No
I wonder were they aware that it would have been very much to the benefit of Swiss banks if Switzerland had decided Germany effectively no longer existed...

Given news which transpired later (and which rumbled on for decades and indeed up to contemporary times) Swiss banks had plenty of reasons, as per usual with a lot of noughts attached, to suddenly decide they no longer knew Germany. As a major culprit in handling looted Jewish wealth from Germany it would have been to their benefit to suddenly pretend they never knew Germany...

That's all true, and also that their bank secrecy laws were started in 1934 to help german jews.

Surrounded by the axis for 4 years meant they had to play ball, but it was obvious by early 1945 that the 3rd reich was a goner. So when they withdrew recognition of german officials in april it was not a surprise.

Dev's visit to the german consulate had bad results. In the USA the laws allowing marshall aid to britain were to be held up until partition here was ended. This was pushed by congressman Fogarty, who lost the final vote when the House was reminded of Dev's undue respect for hitler.

Also our application to join the UN was delayed for 10 years by stalin.

The moral is, stick your neck out if there's a huge reward, and not if not.
 

RasherHash

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Laws aimed specifically against people who deny the holocaust happened would be the doing the same thing which happened in Nazi Germany - trying to force people not to question the current ideology. Why do people use the methods of a movement they detest and then try to pretend that they are superior when they are really just the same. Talk and self-education is the only thing which will stop those things from happening again.
[video=youtube;9YlXSCfkHyg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YlXSCfkHyg[/video]
 

Golah veNekhar

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No doubt the Nazis controlled mass communications.

But remember that control can be effected in a number of ways, positive as well as negative (and particularly with respect to latter day populism, control is effected through 'positive' mechanisms).

For example, Goebbels and his ministry of propaganda promoted the widespread criticism of Jews under the banner of "free speech". - He said that the people must break free of the alleged "taboo" there was on criticising them, and "speak freely". E.g.
One of the massive problems with Jewish culture which often comes as a surprise to non-Jews is the attitude to history, the complete lack of concern about it is often incredibly startling to non-Jews particularly those from Christian backgrounds, indeed in Ashkenaz and Yiddish areas all Jews were banned from reading history books because it was considered a waste of time up until the 18 th century when a particularly liberal Rabbi ruled that Jewish men could read history books but that they could only do so while sitting on the toilet!

There is a quote on the fifty shekel note in Israel which says that Jews ever since being exiled in 66 A.D. have hungered to return to Eretz Israel and the vast majority of Jews are fine even though it is a complete lie, and how do you know it is a lie? Ever heard of Simon bar Kokhba or Simon Son of a Star? Well he led a far more important insurgency between 132-136 AD. You will say that this is when the supposed "Exile" happened than? Uh well no it didn't and how do we know that? We know that because of the Mishnah. In truth there was never an "Exile"- Jews were banned from entering Jerusalem between 66 AD and the Arab invasion but that is something completely different. Israeli Jews base most of their identity on something that never happened and it is incredibly simple to discover never happened.

Your quote is extremely interesting and it backs up things that Gilad Atzmon has being saying. Neurotic Jews being neurotically censorious on issues pertaining to Jews in the media insured that it is only the NSDAP who were talking openly about Jewish issues in public and of course we all know about what tragedies this led to. So maybe Gilad Atzmon is not being so crazy after all when he expresses deep fears that the carry on of the likes of the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism could lead to a re-run of the Shoah? Maybe he is actually learning the lessons of history?
 

McTell

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No
Dev was an old fashioned gentleman who followed decorum. He was not playing to any gallery he obeyed etiquette.

Has to be said that Douglas hyde also regretted hitler's death. When the war ended, and the allies took over the german legation in dublin (as they were then in control of germany), they found Dan Breen's letter of april 1945 wishing the fuhrer a happy birthday.


Dan Breen - Wikipedia
 

parentheses

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That's all true, and also that their bank secrecy laws were started in 1934 to help german jews.

Surrounded by the axis for 4 years meant they had to play ball, but it was obvious by early 1945 that the 3rd reich was a goner. So when they withdrew recognition of german officials in april it was not a surprise.

Dev's visit to the german consulate had bad results. In the USA the laws allowing marshall aid to britain were to be held up until partition here was ended. This was pushed by congressman Fogarty, who lost the final vote when the House was reminded of Dev's undue respect for hitler.

Also our application to join the UN was delayed for 10 years by stalin.

The moral is, stick your neck out if there's a huge reward, and not if not.
The Irish application to join the UN was delayed by what was really a Cold War dispute. In fact, as far as I know, there were no countries allowed join the UN between about 1948 and 1954. Americans vetoed east European countries and the USSR vetoed western countries.
 

fat finger

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Alone we stand against the haters of Free Speech. Brave Ireland, Brave People


 

toughbutfair

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There is no debate, that is the problem, people who question the holocaust are persecuted and imprisoned, it is a foremost scandal of the 20/21st centuries.

[video=youtube;zz6Vbl-TWgI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz6Vbl-TWgI[/video]
What do you question?
 

toughbutfair

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Germans have a tendency towards such violence and need for control so it is right that it is illegal there. They should not be forgiven or let off the hook. However, no need for such a law here.
 

Golah veNekhar

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Germans have a tendency towards such violence and need for control so it is right that it is illegal there. They should not be forgiven or let off the hook. However, no need for such a law here.
What on earth? Most Germans alive today had nothing to do with the Shoah at all.
 

RasherHash

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Germans have a tendency towards such violence and need for control so it is right that it is illegal there. They should not be forgiven or let off the hook. However, no need for such a law here.
Neither should he brits be let off for their many holocausts including the famine?
 

RasherHash

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Has to be said that Douglas hyde also regretted hitler's death. When the war ended, and the allies took over the german legation in dublin (as they were then in control of germany), they found Dan Breen's letter of april 1945 wishing the fuhrer a happy birthday.


Dan Breen - Wikipedia
It shouldn't surprise, people believed the Allied propaganda reluctantly as similar propaganda about the 'evil Germans' from WW1 had been revealed as lies after the war.

The similarities between the WW1 lies and WW2 'truths' are papered over or left quietly to one side today.

To question these realities is verboten :laugh:
 

Clanrickard

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One of the massive problems with Jewish culture which often comes as a surprise to non-Jews is the attitude to history, the complete lack of concern about it is often incredibly startling to non-Jews particularly those from Christian backgrounds, indeed in Ashkenaz and Yiddish areas all Jews were banned from reading history books because it was considered a waste of time up until the 18 th century when a particularly liberal Rabbi ruled that Jewish men could read history books but that they could only do so while sitting on the toilet! Utter and total bullsh*t.

There is a quote on the fifty shekel note in Israel which says that Jews ever since being exiled in 66 A.D. have hungered to return to Eretz Israel and the vast majority of Jews are fine even though it is a complete lie, and how do you know it is a lie? Ever heard of Simon bar Kokhba or Simon Son of a Star? Well he led a far more important insurgency between 132-136 AD. You will say that this is when the supposed "Exile" happened than? Uh well no it didn't and how do we know that? We know that because of the Mishnah. In truth there was never an "Exile"- Jews were banned from entering Jerusalem between 66 AD and the Arab invasion but that is something completely different. Israeli Jews base most of their identity on something that never happened and it is incredibly simple to discover never happened. Historical rubbish.

Your quote is extremely interesting and it backs up things that Gilad Atzmon has being saying. Neurotic Jews being neurotically censorious on issues pertaining to Jews in the media insured that it is only the NSDAP who were talking openly about Jewish issues in public and of course we all know about what tragedies this led to. So maybe Gilad Atzmon is not being so crazy after all when he expresses deep fears that the carry on of the likes of the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism could lead to a re-run of the Shoah? Maybe he is actually learning the lessons of history? Combatting anti-Semitism could lead to another holocaust? You utter gobshyte.
 

Clanrickard

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It shouldn't surprise, people believed the Allied propaganda reluctantly as similar propaganda about the 'evil Germans' from WW1 had been revealed as lies after the war.

The similarities between the WW1 lies and WW2 'truths' are papered over or left quietly to one side today.

To question these realities is verboten :laugh:
 

RasherHash

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Golah veNekhar

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No I do not say Clan that fighting anti-Semitism could lead to another Shoah- what I am saying is the manner in which the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism which they define as encompassing a huge amount of things combat it could actually lead to an explosion of murderous anti-Semitism. For instance look at the way that they destroyed Kevin Myers' career over a clumsy complement he was trying to pay to Jews and look at how they pressured the CPS to re-open a case against a former British Army officer who served in Afghanistan for mouthing off against Jewish influence in Britain in public.

When did the Exile of the Jews from Palestine happen in your reckoning Clan?
 

Clanrickard

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That's the internet equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting na-na-na-naaaaaa :tongue:
No I do not say Clan that fighting anti-Semitism could lead to another Shoah- what I am saying is the manner in which the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism which they define as encompassing a huge amount of things combat it could actually lead to an explosion of murderous anti-Semitism. For instance look at the way that they destroyed Kevin Myers' career over a clumsy complement he was trying to pay to Jews and look at how they pressured the CPS to re-open a case against a former British Army officer who served in Afghanistan for mouthing off against Jewish influence in Britain in public.

When did the Exile of the Jews from Palestine happen in your reckoning Clan?
 

Dame_Enda

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Such a law would be a solution in search of a problem, in the sense that hardly anyone denies the Holocaust in this country. By passing such a law, you are implying that Holocaust denial is widespread here, or that without such a law we would go full-on Nazi.

It was Germany and its Quislings that killed 6 million Jews. Ireland was not in the slightest bit involved in it. Germany needed laws like this to exorcise Nazi ideology from them after WW2. We do not because we would never do such a thing.
 
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