Should Turkey be allowed enter the EU?



corkman2007

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thebrom said:
Should Turkey be allowed enter the EU?
Yes. Turkey would have to accept the full acquis communitaire of the European Union before it became a full member.

This means that it would have to introduce a certain standard of equality and human rights legislation and give practical effect to this legislation.

This would be good for the Turkish people and would show that a predominantly Muslim country can be a modern, secular democracy, treated as an equal by 'western' countries.

That would be an effective argument against extreme Islamists who argue that liberal, secular democracy cannot work in countries where the majority of the population are Muslim.
 

Insider2007

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Re: Could you elaborate??

thebrom said:
Insider2007 said:
Could you elaborate??
It lacks the commitment to democracy.

It lacks the commitment to human rights.

It is not in Europe. So what would a country that is not in Europe be doing in the European Union? If not, why not bring in Jordan, Israel, Sudan or anywhere else. The EU is not the Eurovision Song Contest.

In any case no new countries should be allowed to join for a generation. The EU is struggling to cope with the new members it foolishly took in, a number of whom, notably Poland, barely fits the criteria of a shared commitment to shared values. It needs to put a complete hold on enlargement until the current EU beds down economically, structurally and politically.
 

MichaelR

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Either Turkey AND Russia or neither.

There is not a single problem, on European standards, that Russia has and Turkey does not.
 

corkman2007

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MichaelR said:
Either Turkey AND Russia or neither.

There is not a single problem, on European standards, that Russia has and Turkey does not.
Russia? No way Michael. Not under Putin. If you think that Russia has less human rights problems than Turkey then you're seriously mistaken. It's nice to see someone who's proud of his country, but patriotism means seeing your country in a true light, not thru' rose-tinted spectacles.
 

culbair

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The EU consists of 27 member states. The Commission is large and unwieldy.
Decision making is becoming increasingly difficult. The Poles have begun to assert themselves. There are differences on taxation policy between the French/German axis on the one hand and UK/Ireland and some of the newer member states on the other hand.
In my view it is already too large. The accession of newer member states has probably weakened the cohesion of some of the institutions.
This is not the time for Turkish accession for the following reasons:
(1) With the accession of newer member states a period of consolidation is essential. EU states must reconcile major differences on taxation and institutional reform. Its own internal contradictions may destroy the EU.
(2) Culturally and geographically Turkey is not part of Europe.-Only 3% of the country lies in Europe. It is predominantly Moslem.
(3)Turkey needs to improve its human rights record.
(4) It must reconcile its differences with Greece.
(5) The EU budget is overstretched. The accession of Turkey-71million people- would place too great a financial burden on member states.
(6) Turkey-as a large country- would soon flex its muscles at the Council of Ministers a la Poland
Perhaps Turkey should be granted associate membership for an initial period.
Of course some arguments can be made in favour of Turkish membership
(1) With a population of 71 million people it would provide a cheap pool of labour
(2) EU accession might halt the rise of radical Islam in Turkey.
(3) It might strengthen democracy in Turkey.

However on balance I believe that Turkey should accept associate membership for 10 years. Then the EU should look at the question again.
 

drbob1972

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Reggie Perrin said:
thebrom said:
Should Turkey be allowed enter the EU?
No way... and thankfully not anyway for the forseeable future
agreed, and thankfully Sarkozy seems to have the balls to stand up and do what the vast majority of French and many other european citizens want and say no to turkey, its only a pity some of the other EU leaders don't
 

MichaelR

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corkman2007 said:
MichaelR said:
Either Turkey AND Russia or neither.

There is not a single problem, on European standards, that Russia has and Turkey does not.
Russia? No way Michael. Not under Putin. If you think that Russia has less human rights problems than Turkey then you're seriously mistaken. It's nice to see someone who's proud of his country, but patriotism means seeing your country in a true light, not thru' rose-tinted spectacles.
I am not saying that Russia under Putin is perfect. Not by far!

I am only saying that Turkey and Russia are at least on the same level of political and human rights incompatibility with the EU. I did not even say it has "less" human rights problems - rather, "not more".

Russia does have some stifling of opposition - so does Turkey. (But in both cases the stifling is not absolute).

Russia has recently suppressed a radical separatist movement by questionable violent means - so did Turkey.

Russia does not have a tradition of a responsible free press - nor does Turkey.

Russia has a large number of supporters for bad ideologies, who are known to do violence to their opponents - so does Turkey.

Recent history in Russia includes a suppression of a questionable Communist-dominated Supreme Soviet (that's what it was, not exactly a parliament) by the President by military means. Recent Turkish history includes suppression of an elected Islamist-dominated government by the military itself.

So what problem does Russia have that Turkey does not have?

(Realistically, I don't support Russian AND Turkish entry into the EU in the near future. If only because free movement of labour between these countries and the EU won't work. It's better to create closer bilateral relationships in both cases, possibly on a common "second tier" template).
 

drbob1972

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sorry but Russia is not a valid EU canidate for many reasons, chief amongst them is russian and the eu don't want it
 

MichaelR

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Whether the EU want Turkey is questionable either, as seen in this discussion and many others. As for Russia not expressing a desire to join the EU - well, who would want to express this desire and then get a rejection? Unlike the Turkish military who can always overturn a "wrong" election, Russia's government has to have at least some regard for its internal image.
 

drbob1972

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i think its pretty clear to most ppl that the populous of the EU most certainly does not want turkey, its just the politicians seem incapable (apart from a few) of saying so and also come under US pressure to keep up the pretense of membership for Turkey.
 

Thac0man

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Was there not a very extensive thread on this topic recently?
 

Coles

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I would be against Turkey joining the EU. Human rights abuses, geography/border control, etc etc etc...
 

THR

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There have been threads on this issue before but i´ll answer nevertheless. It is not important whether we ordinary people of the EU support or oppose Turkish EU-membership because Turkey will not be allowed to join the EU.

There are various easily explainable excuses against the Turkish membership ranging from their immature democracy, poor human rights record and their geographic location outside Europe. Another widely voiced sc reason for opposing Turkish membership is that Turkey is a predominantly Muslim country.

However,all these are just excuses. The real reason why Turkey won´t be allowed in is the size of the country. The population of Turkey is about 70m and rising fast. If their population were 7m none of the aforementioned reasons would apply.

Turkish membership would destroy the carefully built balance of power within the EU because even though Turkey is an economic dwarf, its size would guarantee it a position of a political giant.

Turkey will never become a member-state of the EU.
 

soubresauts

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This "Turkey is not in Europe" argument is rubbish. It IS in Europe, at least partly, by any reckoning, and there are huge numbers of Turkish people all over western Europe. Imagine some French or Italians saying "God, we shouldn't have let Ireland join; it's so isolated, and different from us, and they look to America more than to us; and it was never part of the Roman Empire..."

The EU hasn't, and shouldn't, set geographical limits on itself. In the future there may be a tunnel from Spain to Morocco and people are already talking about Morocco joining.

Turkey is a huge, mixed-up country, with enormous social and economic problems, not helped by the American military presence, Iraq, and so on. But why should the EU shirk those problems?

I think the EU can be a force for world peace and a focus for the hopes of humanity, in contrast to war-mongering America. Helping Turkey to join the EU could be the start of a big move in the right direction.

Why stop there? Why not go on to embrace Lebanon, Palestine and Israel? Yes, solve the insoluble problems! If they're all in the EU, why would they fight over artificial borders?

The EU is first and foremost about living together and removing the threat of war. If the EU approaches Leb-Pal-Isr in the right spirit (and they don't have oil reserves...), and those people see the prospect of being full EU citizens, then I think they will tend to stop behaving badly. It is clear that a lot of the bad behaviour is related to feelings of threat. The EU sets out to protect human and civil rights, remove threats, and offer decent economic prospects.

EU membership was a factor in the political breakthrough in Northern Ireland. Not the main factor, but still significant.

Things are much more extreme in Leb-Pal-Isr of course, and there are many complications. Think crusades and colonization for a start.

Again, the objection that they're not European or they're not in Europe doesn't wash. Actually, those states are nearer to the centre of Europe than eastern Turkey is.

I think most of us believe, deep down, that Israelis have better prospects looking to Europe than to America. The EU would have the big task of convincing Israelis about that.

I suppose I'm coming around to the issue of global hegemony. While America is exercising military hegemony, its economic power, relative to Europe and to China, is declining. I would hope that the EU would, while making economic advances, attend to its moral authority as well. That is more important than military power.

I believe that people everywhere need Europe to speak out about global crimes such as the Iraq War and Guantanamo Bay. The EU's lack of cohesiveness on such matters (due partly to the British Government) weakens its approach to the Near East.

And the Irish Government's tolerance of the US military use of Shannon dampens my hopes...

While Turkey and the Near/Middle East are DIFFICULT, what we should do about the Iraq War is SIMPLE: We should have nothing to do with it.
 


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