Should Turkey be allowed enter the EU?

Insider2007

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THR said:
There have been threads on this issue before but i´ll answer nevertheless. It is not important whether we ordinary people of the EU support or oppose Turkish EU-membership because Turkey will not be allowed to join the EU.

There are various easily explainable excuses against the Turkish membership ranging from their immature democracy, poor human rights record and their geographic location outside Europe. Another widely voiced sc reason for opposing Turkish membership is that Turkey is a predominantly Muslim country.

However,all these are just excuses. The real reason why Turkey won´t be allowed in is the size of the country. The population of Turkey is about 70m and rising fast. If their population were 7m none of the aforementioned reasons would apply.

Turkish membership would destroy the carefully built balance of power within the EU because even though Turkey is an economic dwarf, its size would guarantee it a position of a political giant.

Turkey will never become a member-state of the EU.
Superb points (as usual) THR. You are one of our best posters for thought-provoking ideas and analyses.
 


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culbair said:
(2) Culturally and geographically Turkey is not part of Europe.-Only 3% of the country lies in Europe. It is predominantly Moslem.
I agree with what you say about the time, just now, not being right but I'd have to ask about point (2).

Can you say about the 3% figure? From whose definition of where Europe ends does that come? Since the 18th century, Europe has been often said to end / begin at the Ural mountains. Turkey lies to the west of the Ural mountains.
The Moslem thing. Religion has never been a condition of membership or indeed has the EU ever brought up the topic in any EU / Turkey talks. However, I do see where you are coming from with this one in light of the world today.
 

drbob1972

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sorry, soubresauts but have to disagree i believe that geography, culture, etc do indeed play a very important part in what the EU has become, if it was just an economic block then that would be different however it is in many ways becoming more and more of a federal super state, we cannot simply admit and endless stream of countries, esp those that do not share our values and belief's. Israel, Lebanon, Morocco (whom did actually apply), etc do not belong in a european context, as they are simply not what the majority of us regard as europeans. look at the challenges we are facing with the intergration of some eastern european countries, with whom we share a cultural and religious base with, and look at the problems countries like France and Germany have with intergrating north africans and turks, can you imagine the impact of whole countries such as morocco and turkey would have on the EU ?
 

The Earl of Desmond

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I'd have no problem letting Israel become a member as long as Israel was a Jewsish state but for Turkey or any Muslim state - under no circumstances - no no no and if that makes me racist - then so be it. I can write tomes on why I do not want anything to do with a Muslim country - but nor do I wish them any violence I just do not feel we hsare the same values - but I suspect my opinion will get drowned out in screams of racism as it seems that is the default reaction of those who want to blame the west for Muslim violence and is used as a convenient way of avoiding making Muslims taking responsibility for their own failings.
 

The Earl of Desmond

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JCSkinner said:
I'd oppose Israeli membership for a ton of reasons - their illegitimate occupation of Palestine being foremost among them. But again, a simple principle pertains. It's not in Europe. Case closed.
First off JC there is no such place as Palestine and second off do you know why Israel is in the West Bank and Gaza in the first place? Let me remind you then .... Israel was invaded by Arab countries in 1967 but shock horror instead of them wiping out Israel they were soundly beaten by Israel and as Israel pushed the armies out of its UN approved borders it kept going in the way that you do when you want people far away from you and at the end of it Israle was in the Golan Heights, the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza and West Bank, ISrale has stated time and again it will leave Gaza and West Bank when it knows for sure it will not be invaded again. It has peace agreements with Egypt so it left the Sinai Peninusla and it has a peace agreement with Jordan so it left the Golan Heights and if the Palestines can live up to any peace agreement then Israel will leave Gaza and or West Bank but that begs the question of where a Palestinian state will be as it is not sustainable in 2 locations.

So spare me the Israel is to blame for Muslims being nutters rubbish.
 

Reggie Perrin

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To answer that simply... NO Turkey and equally NO Israel in the EU (unlike the farce that is a Song Contest).... they ain't part of the territory, they never can be and they never will be .... idealogical viewpoint sadly but ideaology doesnt work
 

Reggie Perrin

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The Earl of Desmond said:
JCSkinner said:
I'd oppose Israeli membership for a ton of reasons - their illegitimate occupation of Palestine being foremost among them. But again, a simple principle pertains. It's not in Europe. Case closed.
First off JC there is no such place as Palestine and second off do you know why Israel is in the West Bank and Gaza in the first place? Let me remind you then .... Israel was invaded by Arab countries in 1967 but shock horror instead of them wiping out Israel they were soundly beaten by Israel and as Israel pushed the armies out of its UN approved borders it kept going in the way that you do when you want people far away from you and at the end of it Israle was in the Golan Heights, the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza and West Bank, ISrale has stated time and again it will leave Gaza and West Bank when it knows for sure it will not be invaded again. It has peace agreements with Egypt so it left the Sinai Peninusla and it has a peace agreement with Jordan so it left the Golan Heights and if the Palestines can live up to any peace agreement then Israel will leave Gaza and or West Bank but that begs the question of where a Palestinian state will be as it is not sustainable in 2 locations.

So spare me the Israel is to blame for Muslims being nutters rubbish.
A point to be made but not in this thread
 

JCSkinner

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The Earl of Desmond said:
JCSkinner said:
I'd oppose Israeli membership for a ton of reasons - their illegitimate occupation of Palestine being foremost among them. But again, a simple principle pertains. It's not in Europe. Case closed.
First off JC there is no such place as Palestine and second off do you know why Israel is in the West Bank and Gaza in the first place? Let me remind you then .... Israel was invaded by Arab countries in 1967 but shock horror instead of them wiping out Israel they were soundly beaten by Israel and as Israel pushed the armies out of its UN approved borders it kept going in the way that you do when you want people far away from you and at the end of it Israle was in the Golan Heights, the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza and West Bank, ISrale has stated time and again it will leave Gaza and West Bank when it knows for sure it will not be invaded again. It has peace agreements with Egypt so it left the Sinai Peninusla and it has a peace agreement with Jordan so it left the Golan Heights and if the Palestines can live up to any peace agreement then Israel will leave Gaza and or West Bank but that begs the question of where a Palestinian state will be as it is not sustainable in 2 locations.

So spare me the Israel is to blame for Muslims being nutters rubbish.
This isn't the thread for another rigmarole around the Middle-East. But I will suffice to say that you are well aware that opinion, history and perspectives are divided on all the items you present as facts above. As you are also aware, I am of the differing opinion to you in this regard.
But irrespective of Israel's illegitimacy, its state-sponsored terrorism, its occupation of others' land, its dangerous nuclear capacity and the general dislikeability of its citizenry, Israel cannot be a candidate for the EU due to the fact that it's not in fcuking Europe.
Again, case closed.
 

The Earl of Desmond

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True but it drives me mad the way people display such ignorance of basic facts when it concerns the middle east - whatever about differing opinions there are still basic facts which remain the same no matter what point of view one has but still no no no to Turkey and at least France has a leader with the balls to say so - by all means free trade and all that.
 

JCSkinner

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Like I said, Earl, your facts conflict with mine in this regard. Some people would suggest that that makes both mere perspectives. I would disagree, as I'd consider my fact (Israel occupying Palestine, land that is for the vast majority not historically theirs) to be of more credibility than your Zionist propaganda, but then again, others may again feel that both are mere perspectives, best seen in contexts of historical to-ing and fro-ing.
Nevertheless, your pro-Israel stance sits oddly with your opposition to Turkey, which is one of the Zionist state's only allies in the region. After all, Israel is one of the few countries outside Turkey to assist in denying the holocaust.
(The Armenian one, that is.)
Anyhow, to return to the topic, simple geography argues that while no part of Palestine, occupied by Zionists or otherwise, is in Europe, a teeny bit of Turkey is. So the Turks do at least have a better claim to be in the EU than the warmongers of the Middle East ever will.
 

corkman2007

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THR said:
There have been threads on this issue before but i´ll answer nevertheless. It is not important whether we ordinary people of the EU support or oppose Turkish EU-membership because Turkey will not be allowed to join the EU.

There are various easily explainable excuses against the Turkish membership ranging from their immature democracy, poor human rights record and their geographic location outside Europe. Another widely voiced sc reason for opposing Turkish membership is that Turkey is a predominantly Muslim country.

However,all these are just excuses. The real reason why Turkey won´t be allowed in is the size of the country. The population of Turkey is about 70m and rising fast. If their population were 7m none of the aforementioned reasons would apply.

Turkish membership would destroy the carefully built balance of power within the EU because even though Turkey is an economic dwarf, its size would guarantee it a position of a political giant.

Turkey will never become a member-state of the EU.
a. Turkey will have to improve the quality of its democracy and its human rights record before it could be accepted as a member. Letting the Turks know that they will become members if they improve to a sufficient standard will cause them to make better efforts in these areas. It's already happened in some areas of Turkish law.

b. Its geographic location outside of Europe hasn't prevented the French overseas department of Guiana (in South America) being a full part of the territory of the EU and having the Euro as its currency. Europe has no natural boundaries to its east, not even the Ural Mountains. The Eurasian landmass is divided culturally, not geographically.

c. Having a country with a Muslim majority in the EU would be a positive example of the benefits of adopting liberal democracy to other countries with a majority of Muslims. Turkish membership of the EU would strengthen the secular nature of the state.

Have you ever been to Turkey? Large numbers of its people are completely irreligious. Turkey is not a fundamentalist state applying Sharia Law but a secular state with a significant proportion of the population who don't practice any religion, even if they remain Muslims nominally.

d. Part of the reason its economy remains underdeveloped is lack of access to EU markets. EU membership, even without any significant transfer of aid money, would boost Turkey's economy to the benefit of all EU members. A more prosperous Turkey would also be a less conservative Turkey. Ireland's membership of the EU shows how a poor, socially conservative country can be transformed.

Changes in Turkey won't happen overnight after it joins the EU but they will in the long-run and they'll benefit all EU member-states and countries further afield.
 

Squire Allworthy

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I can't understand the assertion that Turkey is not part of Europe. Ottoman Empire sick man of Europe and prior to that Byzantium up until 1453. Its history since prior to Alexander the Great has been more Western than Eastern. Borris Johnston did a very good series on Turkey. We have a really strange and perhaps racist view of what constitutes Europe and indeed one must question the preconceived notion of the boundaries of any such political union.


How we treat Turkey (and Ukraine) is of considerable strategic importance and I fail to see how Greece, Turkey and Cyprus will ever start to address past problems with one of them outside the Union. And while we are at it what about the Balkans?

What is the problem with Turkey? Yes there are issues around human rights but pray how do we encourage progress?

Perhaps poverty is the problem? Well isn't that a selfish attitude. Europe the club for Fat Cats only.

Religion perhaps? Are we that bigoted?

Europe is large and it is difficult to reach sensible decisions but that is a separate issue that needs to be addressed anyway. Sooner or later we have to look at the role of the council of ministers, the parliament etc.


I have always thought it a shame that a trans European political parties never really happened.
 

Squire Allworthy

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Sorry just one point the Golan heights were part of southern Syrian.

In the middle east debate worth looking at the carve up of the Ottoman Empire, but that is off subject for this thread.
 

Meursault

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Shankill Browser said:
culbair said:
(2) Culturally and geographically Turkey is not part of Europe.-Only 3% of the country lies in Europe. It is predominantly Moslem.
I agree with what you say about the time, just now, not being right but I'd have to ask about point (2).

Can you say about the 3% figure? From whose definition of where Europe ends does that come? Since the 18th century, Europe has been often said to end / begin at the Ural mountains. Turkey lies to the west of the Ural mountains.
The Moslem thing. Religion has never been a condition of membership or indeed has the EU ever brought up the topic in any EU / Turkey talks. However, I do see where you are coming from with this one in light of the world today.
The Bosporous, The Sea of Marmara and The Darndales which seperates Thrace from Anotolia is also a dividing line between Asia and Europe.

Agree that the main reason why Turkey will not be admitted to the EU (which it will not at least for the fore-seeable future) is not pedantry over geography, Islam etc, it is the size of its population. If it were admitted today it would be the second largest population in the union and would eventually overtake Germany for first place. As it is by european standards a very poor country, it would be just too big an economic burden for the EU to be willing to except.

As to what I personally think, I would probobly be in favour but the reality is that it is a bit like being in favour of Narnia being joining the EU, it is not going to happen.
 

JCSkinner

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You have me wondering now, though. Could we perhaps swap the Dardanelles for Darndale? That way, the EU would have access to its Eastern water border, while simultaneously we could erect border posts surrounding Darndale, leading to significantly less crime in the Clare Hall and Swords areas.
 

Meursault

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In fairness, no one thinks that Israel should join the EU (least of all Israeli's) the only people I have seen proposing this apart from the occasional message board poster with too much time on his hands is the Italian Rose and the Fist party and even they only have such a policy so that people can tell the difference between them and the other two dozen party's in Italy so let us not turn this into another Israel/Palestine thread.
 

JCSkinner

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Yeh, I can't see the Israelis going mad for those EU concepts of justice and the rule of law, alright.
The difference is that there is a groundswell of support in Turkey to join, admittedly somewhat receding as they see that the EU isn't really reciprocating.
 


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