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Should we now move towards making All Consensual Activities Legal in Ireland ?


Zerubbabel

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Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
1,963
Should we now move towards making all consensual activities legal in Ireland ?
(For people who have reached the legal age of consent)

Some examples would be :

Individual purchase and consumption of recreational drugs (provided one does not hurt anyone else due to the effects)
Selling sex and/or soliciting for sex
Euthanasia
Polygamy (gay and straight)
Public nudity and public sex (e.g. providing there are no witnesses that have not consented; e.g. dogging)
Sibling sexual relations
Any form of pornography (not involving coercion, or those under the age of consent)

Any other examples ?

And what should the legal age of consent be for these activities ?

Perhaps the much touted constitutional convention should be looking at this ?
 


pragmaticapproach

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Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Messages
8,817
Should we now move towards making all consensual activities legal in Ireland ?
(For people who have reached the legal age of consent)

Some examples would be :

Individual purchase and consumption of recreational drugs (provided one does not hurt anyone else due to the effects)
Selling sex and/or soliciting for sex
Euthanasia
Polygamy (gay and straight)
Public nudity and public sex (e.g. providing there are no witnesses that have not consented; e.g. dogging)
Sibling sexual relations
Any form of pornography (not involving coercion, or those under the age of consent)

Any other examples ?

And what should the legal age of consent be for these activities ?

Perhaps the much touted constitutional convention should be looking at this ?
A strict Right libertarian while not neccessarily agreeing with the above, would hold the view that the only legitimate function of government is the protection of persons from fraud or coercion as well as their property rights, and enforcement of contracts.

Most on the broader libertarian/classical liberal spectrum would favour additional interventions at the local level, so they would be in favour of increased local autonomy for local government which might decide to pass anti-nudity laws or anti kerb crawling laws etc.
 
Last edited:

eoghanacht

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Fundies: They spend an inordinate amount of time worrying what other adults are getting up too.


Perfectly innocent of course.
 

Zerubbabel

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Fundies: They spend an inordinate amount of time worrying what other adults are getting up too.


Perfectly innocent of course.
From a taxpayers point of view, the Gardai, the legal services and the state do so as well. Should they ?
 
D

Deleted member 17573

From a taxpayers point of view, the Gardai, the legal services and the state do so as well. Should they ?
Seems fine to me - I see no reason to legislate for any of these issues, except on the question of age.
 
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Consent and personal autonomy should be protected to an extent, but both have limits. Can a man consent to serious harm to himself? What position should the concept of innate human dignity hold in this area?

I argue that certain things should not be decriminalized on the basis of apparent consent. Some people might not be truly capable of giving true consent. Others should not be allowed to consent to things which are contrary to human dignity and to the duty of others not to do harm (we might use deontological ethics and Mill's 'Harm Principle' in this area - neither of which I accept as a guide to moral action, but both could be useful for distinguishing what should be criminal as distinct from moral).

Should a man (as has happened) be allowed to consent to another man cooking and eating him? Even if we assume the consent is informed and real, there is a duty on the other man not to do harm - he should not be allowed to get away with something so heinous. So where is the line drawn? I would argue at the point of serious harm - psychological, physical, or to human dignity. The Brown case in England is borderline - where men were nailing each other's genitals to objects and so on. I think it crosses the line (and so did the court) into negativing consent and being contrary to the protection of human dignity. Others disagree, and it is a tough case. But nonetheless there should be a line somewhere, one beyond which consent can not be allowed to excuse criminal behaviour.

In relation to prostitution - there are issues of drug addiction, trafficking, vulnerability, etc., which also raise questions of human dignity and the limits of consent. Again, I'd be pretty restrictive in this regard. There is a case for decriminalization of prostitution (immoral though I believe it to be) where there is guaranteed mutual consent - but how can that be guaranteed? How many men who use prostitutes inquire deeply (or are even bothered) about the nature of the consent being offered, the mental health of the woman, the chances of her being forced to do what she is doing against her will and under duress? Few, I should think. So I'd take a pretty tough line on the issue of consent in those cases.

So there is a balance to be struck between respecting personal autonomy/avoiding excessive criminalization and respect for human dignity and recognition of the limits of consent.
 

pragmaticapproach

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Messages
8,817
Should we now move towards making all consensual activities legal in Ireland ?
(For people who have reached the legal age of consent)

Some examples would be :

Individual purchase and consumption of recreational drugs (provided one does not hurt anyone else due to the effects)
Selling sex and/or soliciting for sex
Euthanasia
Polygamy (gay and straight)
Public nudity and public sex (e.g. providing there are no witnesses that have not consented; e.g. dogging)
Sibling sexual relations
Any form of pornography (not involving coercion, or those under the age of consent)

Any other examples ?

And what should the legal age of consent be for these activities ?

Perhaps the much touted constitutional convention should be looking at this ?
Some examples of the libertarian approach.

[video=youtube;se0NqJFMAlg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se0NqJFMAlg[/video]

[video=youtube;bvFYCky0muY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvFYCky0muY[/video]

[video=youtube;8Gq11FBBN3g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gq11FBBN3g[/video]
 

eoghanacht

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Joined
Apr 18, 2006
Messages
33,303
Should we now move towards making all consensual activities legal in Ireland ?
(For people who have reached the legal age of consent)

Some examples would be :

Individual purchase and consumption of recreational drugs (provided one does not hurt anyone else due to the effects)
The State doesn't care about the effects of alcohol abuse on others, why introduce such a measure when talking about legalisation of drugs?

Selling sex and/or soliciting for sex
Absolutely, if two or more consenting adults can reach an agreement where one or more wants to pay/buy sex then why not?

Euthanasia
I hope so, last thing I want to do is spend the last decade of my life in a vegetative state, a burden on the state and those who love me.

Polygamy (gay and straight)
Whatever you're having yourself, stupid enough to get married in the first place then by all means compound the problem. It's your right as an adult.

Public nudity and public sex (e.g. providing there are no witnesses that have not consented; e.g. dogging)
Providing it's not down the local park, in front of children and it floats your boat.

Sibling sexual relations
Just don't expect the state to pick up the tab if their are any birth defects.

Any form of pornography (not involving coercion, or those under the age of consent)
Already available

Any other examples ?
Allowing people with imaginary bronze age, middle eastern, thunder gods dictate how others should lead their lives, check
 

YongHoi

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Joined
Apr 21, 2011
Messages
666
Should a man (as has happened) be allowed to consent to another man cooking and eating him? Even if we assume the consent is informed and real, there is a duty on the other man not to do harm - he should not be allowed to get away with something so heinous.
Before being cooked and eaten the guy was killed, right?
That's murder. No consent grants immunity to that act.
Bad example.
Just sayin.
Carry on.
 

Analyzer

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,189
The odd one out, in terms of the discussion in the Irish media and politics, is drug decrimninalization.

Liberal politicians and commentators, will not tell us where they stand on drug decriminalization. (with the exception of Ming).

Why can't Ivana, Gimmemore, etc.. explain where they stand on the issue ?

I suppose the main brewing business on the island is dead set against it. Competition, in the business of brain cell obliteration, is not welcome.
 
Joined
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Messages
19,087
Before being cooked and eaten the guy was killed, right?
That's murder. No consent grants immunity to that act.
Bad example.
Just sayin.
Carry on.
You don't understand the point. The title of the thread is 'Should we now move towards making All Consensual Activities Legal in Ireland?'


Why is it a bad example? It is a perfect example for illustrating my point that there are limits to consent in relation to both what is to be considered moral or to be considered criminal. The question then moves on to where the line is drawn, the principle having been established.
 

ne0ica

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
8,446
Should we now move towards making all consensual activities legal in Ireland ?
(For people who have reached the legal age of consent)

Some examples would be :

Individual purchase and consumption of recreational drugs (provided one does not hurt anyone else due to the effects)
Selling sex and/or soliciting for sex
Euthanasia
Polygamy (gay and straight)
Public nudity and public sex (e.g. providing there are no witnesses that have not consented; e.g. dogging)
Sibling sexual relations
Any form of pornography (not involving coercion, or those under the age of consent)

Any other examples ?

And what should the legal age of consent be for these activities ?

Perhaps the much touted constitutional convention should be looking at this ?
Sure why not. Its heading that way with liberal attitudes of lets not hurt anybodies feelings. How are any of these much a stretch from some of the activities supported and advocated by liberals on this site.
 

borntorum

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May 26, 2008
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I'm guessing that the OPer is trolling, or at the very least creating a strawman
 

LamportsEdge

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Jan 10, 2012
Messages
21,894
You don't understand the point. The title of the thread is 'Should we now move towards making All Consensual Activities Legal in Ireland?'


Why is it a bad example? It is a perfect example for illustrating my point that there are limits to consent in relation to both what is to be considered moral or to be considered criminal. The question then moves on to where the line is drawn, the principle having been established.
You are mixing up 'morality' with criminality. 'Morality' is subjective whereas criminality should be proscribed as objectively as possible. I do not believe it is the state's duty to regulate consensual activity of any kind for an adult.

I do believe the state can frame good laws in this area but only on the harm principle and for the protection of the young who may be preyed upon by the adult. Other than that consensual activity should be guided only in law where there is doubt around consensuality.

In truth this is the way the world moves inexorably in any case and to set a system up against the inexorable is ultimately fruitless.
 
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Messages
19,087
You are mixing up 'morality' with criminality. 'Morality' is subjective whereas criminality should be proscribed as objectively as possible. I do not believe it is the state's duty to regulate consensual activity of any kind for an adult.

I do believe the state can frame good laws in this area but only on the harm principle and for the protection of the young who may be preyed upon by the adult. Other than that consensual activity should be guided only in law where there is doubt around consensuality.
Read my first post again. And read it very slowly this time. You'll get there...
 

pragmaticapproach

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Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Messages
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Sure why not. Its heading that way with liberal attitudes of lets not hurt anybodies feelings. How are any of these much a stretch from some of the activities supported and advocated by liberals on this site.
Do you know the difference between left liberalism and right libertarianism? A left liberal would have no problem taxing you to fund the likes of that "spunout" site which is the subject of another thread. A libertarian would oppose any state funding for such an organisation and believe you as a taxpayer should not have your pockets pilfered to pay for this.
 

Hewson

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Apr 29, 2009
Messages
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You don't understand the point. The title of the thread is 'Should we now move towards making All Consensual Activities Legal in Ireland?'


Why is it a bad example? It is a perfect example for illustrating my point that there are limits to consent in relation to both what is to be considered moral or to be considered criminal. The question then moves on to where the line is drawn, the principle having been established.
Criminality is, by definition, morality free.

'Consent', particularly in prostitution as you've already correctly pointed out, is dubious. Many women who are forced to work as prostitutes do so under threat of beating or even death. Where does consent come into this equation? Men paying for sex don't ask too many questions.

There will be lots of 'if it doesn't kill ya sure what's the problem?' attitudes on this subject.

All without any serious thought on the basics.
 

ne0ica

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Oct 22, 2009
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Do you know the difference between left liberalism and right libertarianism? A left liberal would have no problem taxing you to fund the likes of that "spunout" site which is the subject of another thread. A libertarian would oppose any state funding for such an organisation and believe you as a taxpayer should not have your pockets pilfered to pay for this.
I would prefer the latter but fear in Ireland we tend towards the former.
 

eoghanacht

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