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Should Women respect themselves more?

Ruadh

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Two teenagers have been jailed for their part in an assault which saw three men beaten in front of their children in Toulon. A group of 12 teenagers felt that the wives of the men were dressed inappropriately since they were wearing shorts and suggested the women were 'whores' and should just go naked. The men thought otherwise and this resulted in their being beaten.

In the same town a few months before a young girl was challenged by 5 teen girls for wearing denim shorts and it was suggested she was a whore for that reason. Why is it men can walk around bare chested she asked and I can't wear shorts. Because you are a woman and should respect yourself you idiot they told her.

She posted a picture of how she was dressed.



Nothing is known to me about the identity of the people seeking to open a dialog about modesty. It doesn't need to be. This is equivalent to the slut shaming movement that seems to have grabbed parts of the western world. But it seems to have a much lower threshold of ignorance with simply showing leg enough to let the hate sprout and with violence and direct abuse. It's a more evolved, or should that be degarded, form of slut shaming.

Slut shaming could not be ascribed to just 1 o 2 people. It couldn't be pushed under the carpet and said it was a minority of men. Wider society had responsibility in how it objectified women and demanded standards from women that would never apply to men.

The same thing seems to be happening in France with violence and abuse being used to shame the sluts. A couple of bad eggs stop blaming the youth or is there a wider problem with misformed notions of modesty for women, and a readiness to use assault to make the point clearer.

So is slut shaming the responsibility of only the few agitators and how wider society coerces women not an issue or does society have to accept when its driving the misogyny.

Who cares at this juncture what their background is. Invariably people will make assumptions. Instead first analyze the problem and establish the correct response. Then apply that correct response. That will likely cause conniptions but if it's the correct response then it's the correct response.

So can we identify what the correct response is. Don't get bogged down in background.


Teenagers jailed for attacking two families in southern France as 'women were wearing shorts' | The Independent
 


toughbutfair

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If the attackers were Muslim, it is hard to have sympathy for the French. This is normal in Muslim countries and if you support Muslim immigration you support the idea that women are the property of men.
 

Ruadh

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If the attackers were Muslim, it is hard to have sympathy for the French. This is normal in Muslim countries and if you support Muslim immigration you support the idea that women are the property of men.
What's the response. Don't get bogged down into the identity. What is the correct way to ensure that women are treated equally and this perverted notion of a special female modesty can be canned.

Define the correct response and let it apply to all.

This is slut shaming. How does society respond to slut shaming when the bar of what is a slut is ever lower and when violence seems more ready a response.

Figure out the response and then apply it to all. Changing notions of modesty, of whether women are subject to wider public scrutiny.

As soon as you say its this group you kill the chance of identifying a solution that can be applied to all without fear or favour. If that upsets slut shamers from every community who cares. They will be required to accept it or the alternative is there should be different notions of modesty.

I don't give a toss what their background is and they cannot use it as a defence to hate.
 
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toughbutfair

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What's the response. Don't get bogged down into the identity. What is the correct way to ensure that women are treated equally and this perverted notion of a special female modesty can be canned.

Define the correct response and let it apply to all.

This is slut shaming. How does society respond to slut shaming when the bar of what is a slut is ever lower and when violence seems more ready a response.

Figure out the response and then apply it to all. Changing notions of modesty, of whether women are subject to wider public scrutiny.
People who get upset by a women wearing too little are pathetic.
 

silverharp

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they were Muslims, get used to it
 

Lara2

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What's the response. Don't get bogged down into the identity. What is the correct way to ensure that women are treated equally and this perverted notion of a special female modesty can be canned.

Define the correct response and let it apply to all.

This is slut shaming. How does society respond to slut shaming when the bar of what is a slut is ever lower and when violence seems more ready a response.

Figure out the response and then apply it to all. Changing notions of modesty, of whether women are subject to wider public scrutiny.
How can one not get "bogged down into the identity" when you use an article that more or less points to the fact that it is to do with identity? Can you give us an example that isn't identity-related like the one above? I was walking down an affluent street in Glasgow last year in a summer's dress that went slightly above the knee and was yelled at and called a whore by some teenage Pakistanis from a doorway to a house. Of course it's to do with identity. In all my years, I have never had this shouted at me by Irish teenagers. If it's not to do with identity, could you provide a different example than that of the OP?
 

toughbutfair

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How can one not get "bogged down into the identity" when you use an article that more or less points to the fact that it is to do with identity? Can you give us an example that isn't identity-related like the one above? I was walking down an affluent street in Glasgow last year in a summer's dress that went slightly above the knee and was yelled at and called a whore by some teenage Pakistanis from a doorway to a house. Of course it's to do with identity. In all my years, I have never had this shouted at me by Irish teenagers. If it's not to do with identity, could you provide a different example than that of the OP?
I know leftie women who support Muslim immigration and get all shifty and mumbly when I mention their attitude towards women.
 

Lúidín

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Teenagers jailed for attacking two families in southern France as 'women were wearing shorts' | The Independent

This report from today's Independent neglects to say who the attackers were and why they carried out the assault. It is now up to us to read between the lines as news reports are no longer able to state the facts for fear of causing offence and being themselves attacked.

I recall, a long time ago, a report in an Irish paper where a man was charged with shouting "Up an Illegal Organisation! Up an Illegal Organisation!" We are back in those times again, it seems.

(Posted earlier in the wrong thread).
 

slippy wicket

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Well let the lads feck back to ragistan if they want to live like animals.
 

Lara2

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Teenagers jailed for attacking two families in southern France as 'women were wearing shorts' | The Independent

This report from today's Independent neglects to say who the attackers were and why they carried out the assault. It is now up to us to read between the lines as news reports are no longer able to state the facts for fear of causing offence and being themselves attacked.

I recall, a long time ago, a report in an Irish paper where a man was charged with shouting "Up an Illegal Organisation! Up an Illegal Organisation!" We are back in those times again, it seems.

(Posted earlier in the wrong thread).
Well, considering the article's left sidebar comments that say "READ MORE, Campaigner asks why burkini ban was dropped in a month but enforced hijab law remains in Iran after decades, Burkini ban: Nice court suspends ban ruling terror threat 'insufficient grounds' for its justification, Burkini ban: United Nations condemns French laws for 'fuelling intolerance and stigmatisation of Muslims' I think it's safe to assume the gang were muslims.
 

toughbutfair

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Maybe European women should hide their bodies and faces (whores) , and do they really need to read? Does Allah approve ?
 

redneck

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In my opinion Christian Women should dress modestly if possible. And Christian Men should behave properly also.
 

toughbutfair

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In my opinion Christian Women should dress modestly if possible. And Christian Men should behave properly also.
Fair enough. still irrelevant though. We don't know if the women are Christian, you haven't stated whether this is the view of the church , you haven't stated your attitude to Christian women who don't dress modestly, you haven't stated your view to Christian men's dress code.
 

Ruadh

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We don't know their identities.

If you ignore their identity and simply determine what's the correct thing to do then you go down the rabbit hole of doing the right thing without having to modify it to see how it plays with the wider world. That can lead to all types of issues but it starts off by clearly defining what the right thing should be and it means that when others object it's not because they do so from merit because they hold views which are objectionable and for that very reason are problematic.

So how about this for the right response.

(1) Assaults of this nature be regarded as having a socially coercive nature and be punished more like a hate crime than a simple beating.

(2) Recognition that women are not whores for wearing shorts be regarded as axiomatic, in other words, unquestionably true. Let it follow from this that all pupils attend a class, which must be passed, teaching them that women have equal rights to men and that any notion that a woman is a whore for wearing shorts is a hateful one. Students should learn that attempt to define what women should wear and do are wrong and amoral in a society based in equality of the sexes.

How would that run in France? Be looking at the problem and not identity we can see a clear path forward consist with our notions of women not inherently being whores. If the Catholic reactionaries or any other reactionaries have a problem with that then so what. It's not about accommodating reaction but defeating it.
 
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Ruadh

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Well, considering the article's left sidebar comments that say "READ MORE, Campaigner asks why burkini ban was dropped in a month but enforced hijab law remains in Iran after decades, Burkini ban: Nice court suspends ban ruling terror threat 'insufficient grounds' for its justification, Burkini ban: United Nations condemns French laws for 'fuelling intolerance and stigmatisation of Muslims' I think it's safe to assume the gang were muslims.
The sidebar of the East British Independent is not introducible in a court of law.

As soon as you talk identity you prevent the establishment of what a correct response is and secondly you prevent that response from ever being rolled out without fear or favour.
 

silverharp

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We don't know their identities.

If you ignore their identity and simply determine what's the correct thing to do then you go down the rabbit hole of doing the right thing. That can lead to all types of issues but it starts off by clearly defining what the right thing should be.
cant really, this is North African ethics in action not European, go find an Arab forum to have this debate
 

Gwannow

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I cannot imagine that western teenage boys would be anything but delighted to see young women in shorts. At least I was at that age.
 

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