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Simon Harris Espouses Coercion And Forced Medical Intervention On Healthy Children


Noble Guardian

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Vaccine used until 2016 causes a new variant. Yay.


Can I presume that nobody from these countries gets into Ireland without a full and genuine vaccination card?
That'#s really interesting, thanks.

It makes intuitive sense that a live virus vaccine , orally administered, might result in some viral shedding which, in turn could casse problems in an area with poor sanitation. I'm always a little wary of "intuition" however, as it is subject to cognitive biases. Still, it;s a good start for further exploration.

As regards your second point, restricting immigration to people from those countries, there's an ECDC paper on this. The Executive summary describes what should be offered to newly- arriving immigrants.
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/documents/Public health guidance on screening and vaccination of migrants in the EU EEA.pdf

The discussion on whether immigration should be limited to those with already complete vaccination records is a different discussion. From a scientific perspective, i would wonder whether the risk to the risk posed to the indigent population would justify such a restriction.
 

Noble Guardian

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If these diseases have been eradicated then why continue to vaccinate children against them?
where diseases have been truly eradicated (e.g. smallpox) vaccination programmes have concluded. Smallpox vaccination was common in some UK HCPs in the previous generation, but no longer.

however, for many diseases they either haven't been fully eradicated in humans or there's an animal or environmental source form the infection (TB, perhaps) which can't be eradicated. A such, vaccination needs to be continued.
 

petaljam

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That'#s really interesting, thanks.

It makes intuitive sense that a live virus vaccine , orally administered, might result in some viral shedding which, in turn could casse problems in an area with poor sanitation. I'm always a little wary of "intuition" however, as it is subject to cognitive biases. Still, it;s a good start for further exploration.

As regards your second point, restricting immigration to people from those countries, there's an ECDC paper on this. The Executive summary describes what should be offered to newly- arriving immigrants.
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/documents/Public health guidance on screening and vaccination of migrants in the EU EEA.pdf

The discussion on whether immigration should be limited to those with already complete vaccination records is a different discussion. From a scientific perspective, i would wonder whether the risk to the risk posed to the indigent population would justify such a restriction.
One thing that article absolutely doesn't indicate is that polio vaccines are not a good thing though!

The vaccine is what has made polio a rarity, and it's a mixture of insufficient vaccination levels and lack of sanitation and poor hygiene that have led to this in a single African country, DRC, one that has a barely functioning government so it's inevitable that issues of compliance arise there. They have an excuse for not getting their children vaccinated against polio. In the west, the only explanation seems to be stupidity. But I wonder whether anti vaccine activists really don't have children vaccinated against things like polio. I find it hard to believe anyone could be that reckless with their children's health. I'm old enough to remember children with calipers at school.

Like the problem with malaria, which was very nearly - but not quite - beaten in the mid 20th century and is now a major problem again, what this article actually shows is that we must not consider the battle to be won, ie if we treat vaccines as carelessly as we've treated antibiotics, there is a major risk of losing the massive advantage that vaccines (and antibiotics) gave us in the first place.
 

Noble Guardian

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If I report symptoms to my doctor and say that I think they are caused by drug x, and doc says, no, they’re not, let’s run some tests, how can I tell if my doc reported to the gov bod?

I would be justified in thinking that my doc did not so report.

If it later transpired that yes, in fact the drug x was causing unusual symptoms on account of my blood type and the fact that I have two left feet, will the doc then report?

Certainly no one has ever contacted me from the gov bod to get more epidionological data to put the risk of drug x ‘in context’.

That does not engender confidence, like.

Especially when clinical trials are run on people who are selected based on their matching the specified criteria which probably doesn’t include people with my blood type and two left feet.

[Note - my other two feet are right]
I've two left feet as well, gets me out of a lot of the dancing at family events.

What docors should know and do, and what and individual doctor ACTUALLY knows and does might be two different scenarios.
however, it's not like there's a lack of information for them to use to educate themselves (time permitting ...)

https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/276919/1-s2.0-S1755001709X00035/1-s2.0-S1755001709000050/main.pdf?x-amz-security-token=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&AWSAccessKeyId=ASIAQ3PHCVTYTJ65KIFG&Expires=1555059718&Signature=boRGR2BqMatt5FxrMxpd/bII4qI=&hash=ee931e218fcd6be5f11f6ab0b549560eb4685070f6b29be9bb77e9b800176bac&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S1755001709000050&tid=spdf-508507b7-be53-4ca3-8672-b4b90597fbee&sid=bd077a2f8fe7e24a880961c51ca3a106d8f1gxrqb&type=client
 

Massey

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One thing that article absolutely doesn't indicate is that polio vaccines are not a good thing though!

The vaccine is what has made polio a rarity, and it's a mixture of insufficient vaccination levels and lack of sanitation and poor hygiene that have led to this in a single African country, DRC, one that has a barely functioning government so it's inevitable that issues of compliance arise there. They have an excuse for not getting their children vaccinated against polio. In the west, the only explanation seems to be stupidity. But I wonder whether anti vaccine activists really don't have children vaccinated against things like polio. I find it hard to believe anyone could be that reckless with their children's health. I'm old enough to remember children with calipers at school.

Like the problem with malaria, which was very nearly - but not quite - beaten in the mid 20th century and is now a major problem again, what this article actually shows is that we must not consider the battle to be won, ie if we treat vaccines as carelessly as we've treated antibiotics, there is a major risk of losing the massive advantage that vaccines (and antibiotics) gave us in the first place.
Thousands were in the early 00s due to Wakefield.
 

Destiny's Soldier

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His going to set up his own school for clinical morans .
I find it utterly shocking that Matt Cooper and Dom Rowley would be so aggressive with their neo-fascist statements over other people's freedom. Causing psychological and emotional trauma to children and parents who would not want vaccination. People who want to be left alone and mind their own business.

I have a message for them and Simple Simon. Take the Ministers own advice and "Just butt out" of other people's lives.

There is something pathological of a person who would sign themselves on Twitter as "Pro Vax". This is probably an attention seeking insecurity. A form of virtue-signalling to his elders perchance to win favour or career enhancement. Normal people would say nothing yet here is a Dr. describing a societal medical intervention as who he is. Weak. Maybe was bullied himself or didn't have many friends growing up.

I mean who is going to police children not being vaccinated?

So back to my school. Yes, I will enjoy every minute of opening a private school for children bullied by the State and if they wish they can wear a Yellow Star of David as an emblem of the school to remind society what happened in Nazi Germany.

Vaccinated children will be allowed to attend.
 

petaljam

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Thousands were in the early 00s due to Wakefield.
Sure but that's not quite the same thing - the risks of serious complications from mumps are real but small. Most people of my generation had mumps, it wasn't seen as a big thing because mostly it wasn't.
But the poster I was replying to actually said "nobody needs vaccines" - which is such a sweeping generalisation and, frankly, such arrant nonsense that I wanted to unpick whether s/he could really believe it to be true, or whether she just got carried away by hyperbole.

Hence my question about vaccines for catastrophic illnesses like polio and rabies, both of which are lessons in what can be achieved with vaccinations, and also perhaps cautionary tales about what may happen if we lower our guard and consider the battle against infectious disease to have been "won".

Objecting to a fever caused by the measles vaccine, and equating that with measles itself, as the poster was doing earlier, may be pertinent for a minor childhood illness, as measles has been for generations now in Europe - though not everywhere, just ask the Native Americans - but it would be truly insane to object to the polio vaccine because it gives a fever or leaves a scar! IMO, obviously.
 

Noble Guardian

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Sure but that's not quite the same thing - the risks of serious complications from mumps are real but small. Most people of my generation had mumps, it wasn't seen as a big thing because mostly it wasn't.
You're right. for most people their individual perception was that these childhood illnesses were trivial. even if you take a serious adverse event rate of 1 in 1,000 (let's say) that would mean that one child in about 40 primary school classes would have had such an event, far beyond what an individual family would have immediate social awareness of any such event and because of this, their impression of the perceived risk was quite low.

There are, however, about 560,000 children in primary school, or around 70,000 per school year. that's not too far away from with the number of births per year in Ireland (about 62,000, but falling).

Primary school population to peak at highest level since 1980s
Birth rate continues to fall as maternal age rises

if 65000 kids are all exposed, the 65 would have some sort of serious event (at a rate of 1 in 1000), and while in the past you would never have heard about these kids in a social media age you'd be hearing about one every week. So a risk which had been received as being rare or almost non-existent is now perceived as being commonplace in Ireland, and almost of biblical proportions worldwide .

Vaccines have replaced a 1 in 1,000 risk of serious adverse events from diseases with a 1 in 10,000 or less risk. of the same from vaccines, still present but an order of magnitude less. however, social media still magnifies this perceived risk to something far bigger than it actually is. This, coupled with the fact that we empathize with people who are unwell for whatever reason, especially those with who we can identify (parents looking after their children who just want to do what;'s best), and it's no wonder that such parents choose to avoid the risk they hear about (vaccine injury - 1 in 10,000) rather than the one they don't (measles encephalitis, 1 in 1000).

( The 1 in 1,000 and 1 in 10,000 figures is arbitrary but indicative for this illustration, so don't quote me :) They are, not too far from the reported figures, so will do)
 

Massey

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Sure but that's not quite the same thing - the risks of serious complications from mumps are real but small. Most people of my generation had mumps, it wasn't seen as a big thing because mostly it wasn't.
But the poster I was replying to actually said "nobody needs vaccines" - which is such a sweeping generalisation and, frankly, such arrant nonsense that I wanted to unpick whether s/he could really believe it to be true, or whether she just got carried away by hyperbole.

Hence my question about vaccines for catastrophic illnesses like polio and rabies, both of which are lessons in what can be achieved with vaccinations, and also perhaps cautionary tales about what may happen if we lower our guard and consider the battle against infectious disease to have been "won".

Objecting to a fever caused by the measles vaccine, and equating that with measles itself, as the poster was doing earlier, may be pertinent for a minor childhood illness, as measles has been for generations now in Europe - though not everywhere, just ask the Native Americans - but it would be truly insane to object to the polio vaccine because it gives a fever or leaves a scar! IMO, obviously.
My point is the article points to a fall off in MMR vaccinations due to the scare mongering around vaccinations and autism.
 

General Mayhem

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That'#s really interesting, thanks.

It makes intuitive sense that a live virus vaccine , orally administered, might result in some viral shedding which, in turn could casse problems in an area with poor sanitation. I'm always a little wary of "intuition" however, as it is subject to cognitive biases. Still, it;s a good start for further exploration.
To me it makes intuitive sense to stop using oral vaccine in poor sanitation areas before you do so in good sanitation areas. Ireland stopped using OPV in 2000. Intuitively I feel there was a reason for this.

As regards your second point, restricting immigration to people from those countries, there's an ECDC paper on this. The Executive summary describes what should be offered to newly- arriving immigrants.
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/documents/Public health guidance on screening and vaccination of migrants in the EU EEA.pdf

The discussion on whether immigration should be limited to those with already complete vaccination records is a different discussion. From a scientific perspective, i would wonder whether the risk to the risk posed to the indigent population would justify such a restriction.
Are you suggesting that it’s ok to allow unvaccinated immigrants to put our ‘herd’ at risk but not ok to allow unvaccinated nationals to do the same?

Best of luck coercing the natives to comply with that logic.
 

General Mayhem

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where diseases have been truly eradicated (e.g. smallpox) vaccination programmes have concluded. Smallpox vaccination was common in some UK HCPs in the previous generation, but no longer.

however, for many diseases they either haven't been fully eradicated in humans or there's an animal or environmental source form the infection (TB, perhaps) which can't be eradicated. A such, vaccination needs to be continued.
Mutation can take a long time, or a short time, to become apparent.

The polio situation discussed earlier seems to have taken a very long time to be recognized.

Or perhaps not.
 

General Mayhem

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I've two left feet as well, gets me out of a lot of the dancing at family events.

What docors should know and do, and what and individual doctor ACTUALLY knows and does might be two different scenarios.
however, it's not like there's a lack of information for them to use to educate themselves (time permitting ...)

https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/276919/1-s2.0-S1755001709X00035/1-s2.0-S1755001709000050/main.pdf?x-amz-security-token=AgoJb3JpZ2luX2VjENn//////////wEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJGMEQCIHieQJNA4QN0G1g8uq8WtTcCA+hUfac7P8YURQxHqxkFAiBiMJ6YDPLDc85+Xky4mzSj++pv9IzCfbsMsQ0ZFGB7ESrjAwih//////////8BEAIaDDA1OTAwMzU0Njg2NSIMroKTOdWKjr+dBYfoKrcDinCCTTtbJf4PuNtrHAIaPlRxAG3V/KvoHQP63/nd5WzjTi6fFsUIr0Jn9Vxn2UE48gxOfjWAckyqZsyz45003jGsL37gVg7XK4UyT54CGTSRMqWSmCajniu5e9pzJP1azeAtLNnwrMnuuHF9E6YcbWtXdhi4e2azwBKydtN5e4Kf/VABeYzSM1taqED1UV+qqThkO288ibFljvqD9oBjLE8wJzVs8JLx3jwTXVuPb6XnvP+2rV+CrRVJjmIOavD8gRWph75iuHVGqCk8MAhel610e9Sqv9zDIL4WZzMdQoXaK+sneTvCdYoS5+zrq5654Kom0i13AkDAx9x4G+RowSMxNhTpBeRlvsfIPwAJcO/RW0edqOKt+aJynraCGpCinc6UcQ7suIW0VshDKAJNbX67adB51Usaow7c6qmT3R4VlxAh+JFG1vDsvnEuRHt/D28OKjvbzqkO3qmWqQ343H2bDeqd7P/4CSXiWpIOvxWuVONKV7Z09cb6HfHhHH/gqlT1d2t04DdQx8BgS2eBQc0FeWhahCKsgGvJZywlqhIGedPKAZ4lnMyDYw/jzGPzx4QANsoIyDDljsHlBTq1AR/TrsaxR8CxTVrMktr2+wq1CAbx0IJD4bVRYITEmUxfDnjCY0I4w9s9+TZlbXmupWfPHoMRiQ8pK5thUbSIuPYOQwbJNrZQi79YUjRY/NoKwSnloG+k4Om9yPgFOorS/ZTWUvvRrZV5IAYCkpwUedB/ivhjod4ITt02gcpfwJ8AArYjl3GReXLVuhMzpO527kSVnf9LilHMkn9lIiq/IqICOoryLFRac+zm8I6lzFgW7jecu0U=&AWSAccessKeyId=ASIAQ3PHCVTYTJ65KIFG&Expires=1555059718&Signature=boRGR2BqMatt5FxrMxpd/bII4qI=&hash=ee931e218fcd6be5f11f6ab0b549560eb4685070f6b29be9bb77e9b800176bac&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S1755001709000050&tid=spdf-508507b7-be53-4ca3-8672-b4b90597fbee&sid=bd077a2f8fe7e24a880961c51ca3a106d8f1gxrqb&type=client
I think you are missing the point.

If it isn’t a recognized side effect then my doc is right to say so and look elsewhere for the cause of my symptoms.

Many other docs will do the same with their oddball cases.

Nobody will ever know how many similar cases there are, unless all are reported.
 

Noble Guardian

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To me it makes intuitive sense to stop using oral vaccine in poor sanitation areas before you do so in good sanitation areas. Ireland stopped using OPV in 2000. Intuitively I feel there was a reason for this.



Are you suggesting that it’s ok to allow unvaccinated immigrants to put our ‘herd’ at risk but not ok to allow unvaccinated nationals to do the same?

Best of luck coercing the natives to comply with that logic.
I don't know why oral polio vaccine was discontinued.
As to your second point, this thread is about people's willingness to comply with a recognised public health benefit. Immigrants who have not been able to avail of vaccination are a different population to natives who refuse to partake in vaccination.
I'm not particularly interested in having a immigration discussion right now.
 

Noble Guardian

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I think you are missing the point.

If it isn’t a recognized side effect then my doc is right to say so and look elsewhere for the cause of my symptoms.

Many other docs will do the same with their oddball cases.

Nobody will ever know how many similar cases there are, unless all are reported.
I can see how you might think that, but the whole point of post-authorisation surveillance is to catch adverse effects which haven't been seen in clinical trials due to there rarity. However you are right that these events will only be discovered when they are reported. Better education and awareness of medical personnel is essential for this to happen, perhaps supported by a more tolerant legal environment
 

General Mayhem

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I don't know why oral polio vaccine was discontinued.
As to your second point, this thread is about people's willingness to comply with a recognised public health benefit. Immigrants who have not been able to avail of vaccination are a different population to natives who refuse to partake in vaccination.
I'm not particularly interested in having a immigration discussion right now.
That you would choose to see my comments as an immigration issue rather than a vaccination/health issue, says a lot.

You simply cannot espouse forced vaccination for resident children while simultaneously promoting assimilation of unvaccinated immigrants.
 

General Mayhem

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I don't know why oral polio vaccine was discontinued.
Me neither, are they keeping the reason quiet?

As to your second point, this thread is about people's willingness to comply with a recognised public health benefit. Immigrants who have not been able to avail of vaccination are a different population to natives who refuse to partake in vaccination.
Sure. I’m just unclear why we should put our whole vaccination programme for the last multiple years at risk because we couldn’t fund the vaccination of the entire planet.

I'm not particularly interested in having a immigration discussion right now.
Addressed already, but worth highlighting again.
 

General Mayhem

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I can see how you might think that, but the whole point of post-authorisation surveillance is to catch adverse effects which haven't been seen in clinical trials due to there rarity. However you are right that these events will only be discovered when they are reported. Better education and awareness of medical personnel is essential for this to happen, perhaps supported by a more tolerant legal environment
Again, I find this a bit pathetic.

Right is right. Wrong is wrong.

You don’t need a lawyer to tell you that.
 

soubresauts

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... Right is right. Wrong is wrong.

You don’t need a lawyer to tell you that.
Let's get things right:

In relation to health, what distinguishes Americans from all other developed nations?
  • Americans' life expectancy is going down.
  • They spend more on healthcare than anyone else.
  • They get more vaccinations than anyone else.
  • They are sicker than anyone else.
Are those phenomena connected? The medical establishment won't investigate. Similarly, the fact that unvaccinated people are healthier than vaccinated people will not be investigated.

Irish people should be alarmed, because Ireland always tend to follow the American way. Life expectancy is probably going down already. And the number of vaccinations is steadily going up, heading for the 72 doses that American kids are supposed to get by their teens.

While public health in America is going to the dogs, public confidence in vaccination is waning. At the same time, the pharmamedical establishment is pushing politicians to impose forced vaccination laws.

If you don't think Ireland is going the same way, you need to cop on.

In the following video, Del Bigtree lays it out very clearly, in the context of mandatory vaccination laws in California and New York. America's sickness figures are so bad that you just cannot believe, cannot trust the "guardians of public health" -- the CDC, the FDA, and the NIH. They have lost the moral high ground. If you don't want the vaccine, then you are right and they are wrong, no matter what they say. The figures show they are wrong.

For the details on America's sickness, watch from minute 7:00 to 19:00:

 

Emily Davison

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Let's get things right:

In relation to health, what distinguishes Americans from all other developed nations?
  • Americans' life expectancy is going down.
  • They spend more on healthcare than anyone else.
  • They get more vaccinations than anyone else.
  • They are sicker than anyone else.
Are those phenomena connected? The medical establishment won't investigate. Similarly, the fact that unvaccinated people are healthier than vaccinated people will not be investigated.

Irish people should be alarmed, because Ireland always tend to follow the American way. Life expectancy is probably going down already. And the number of vaccinations is steadily going up, heading for the 72 doses that American kids are supposed to get by their teens.

While public health in America is going to the dogs, public confidence in vaccination is waning. At the same time, the pharmamedical establishment is pushing politicians to impose forced vaccination laws.

If you don't think Ireland is going the same way, you need to cop on.

In the following video, Del Bigtree lays it out very clearly, in the context of mandatory vaccination laws in California and New York. America's sickness figures are so bad that you just cannot believe, cannot trust the "guardians of public health" -- the CDC, the FDA, and the NIH. They have lost the moral high ground. If you don't want the vaccine, then you are right and they are wrong, no matter what they say. The figures show they are wrong.

For the details on America's sickness, watch from minute 7:00 to 19:00:

- Obesity
- Opioid addictions

But you continue to be an idiot about vaccines and ignore reality.
 
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