Sinn Féin out in front again with Budget Submission.

SFInbhear

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Assuming this is a fair summary

Sinn Fin wants new higher tax rate of 48% - RT News

There's no way they'll even get a last preference from me (never did anyway so no loss to them). Budget is slanted towards serious tax increases with too little spending cuts.
Sinn Fein has had this policy since 2007. Since then both Labour and Fine Gael have copied it. Looks like it will be Fianna Fail for you!!!!
 


SlabMurphy

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Would certainly have been logical. Its not the fact the SF are utterly detached from economic reality that is worrying though, it a fact they don't have any economic expertise. What is disturbing is that their repeated failure to get to grips with hard economics is endorsed time and again as genius by their followers. I have nothing in particular against SF these days, but only because I can laugh when they come out with their budget nonsense. Wrong is wrong, any party can be corrected. But on the economy SF are on a differant planet entirely.
So in your estimation, what parties have got the " economic expertise " and "can get to grips with hard economics " .

The blueshirts ? Labour ? Who?
 

civilserpant

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Had a quick look at the headlines across the new agencies.

"Spending savings include a 25% cut in professional fees, savings on medicine costs, a cap of €100,000 on salaries in semi-state bodies and a €6m saving in politicians pay."

a 25% cut in professional fees?? eh, how??????
Cap of €100k for salaries - utterly, utterly ridiculous and unenforceable.

Pie in the sky rubbish.

The PRSI ceiling abolishment and stimulous plans have some merit.
 

Oldira1

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Had a quick look at the headlines across the new agencies.

"Spending savings include a 25% cut in professional fees, savings on medicine costs, a cap of €100,000 on salaries in semi-state bodies and a €6m saving in politicians pay."

a 25% cut in professional fees?? eh, how??????
Cap of €100k for salaries - utterly, utterly ridiculous and unenforceable.

Pie in the sky rubbish.

The PRSI ceiling abolishment and stimulous plans have some merit.

Very easy...instead of paying Arthur Cox 5.5 million for 'advice' you pay them 4.1 million. If Cox do not like it tough...there are loads of firms that will do the same work for less. Lawyers and accountants are bleeding us dry.

How is a cap on PS salaries unenforceable? On one hand people call for a cut in PS wages but when SF put it in actual figures it is 'ridicilous'. You want low paid civil servants to have a pay cut but not the big boys?
 

BloggerBob

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Pity there is no sustance to it, heard SF Finance spokesman on Morning Ireland and what he was proposing might bring in/save a hundred million or so - this is not what is needed. Hard decisions like reverse benchmarking, slashing the backoffice jobsworths in the public service linked to a productivity agreement that meets their remit of PUBLIC SERVANTS. An example of which would be parent teacher meetings after 5pm where parents can actually attend. Too much emphasis is being put on micro savings and not the macro problem that we actually have.
 

turdsl

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Here's a novel idea...

Let's stop treating following political parties in the same way that folk follow sports teams.

Instead let's judge Sinn Féin's policies on their merit alone.


You must be joking, Remember what Enda Kenny said, he would have nothing to do with Sinn Fein because of their Republican activities, No comment if they were elected reps. or not.
 

civilserpant

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Very easy...instead of paying Arthur Cox 5.5 million for 'advice' you pay them 4.1 million. If Cox do not like it tough...there are loads of firms that will do the same work for less. Lawyers and accountants are bleeding us dry.

How is a cap on PS salaries unenforceable? On one hand people call for a cut in PS wages but when SF put it in actual figures it is 'ridicilous'. You want low paid civil servants to have a pay cut but not the big boys?
Of course its unenforceable. Its crazy! You'll have an immeidate brain drain of the best senior staff across the board of public services.

I never said low paid civil servants should get a pay cut, dunno where you got that from.

Leave aside the fact that Sec Gens of depts arent going hang around if their pay is cut in half (they'll go to the private sector in a heartbeat), look at Doctors, Consultants, senior management in the ESB etc.

If you struggled get Drumm to take the head of the HSE job at 300k, you think anyone of quality will do it for 100K. Its absolutely stupid and naive. A soundbyte of the dumbest kind.

The simple fact is, if you want expereinced senior staff, you have to pay them appropriately. Putting in a 100k cap, not that SF will be in a place to do it, might appeal to a certain demographic, but would result in a complete collapse in the public health service, straight off.

As for the 25%... jesus... I didnt realise thats what you meant. Its even more foolish now. Here's how such things work. You go to market with a tender for a service/product. A bunch of companies give you a price. You select the cheapest or Most economically advantageous tender. They win.

You don't/can't go and say. Thanks. Now here's 3/4's of the price. Please go do it. There ARE NOT loads of firms who can do quality consultancy work 'for less'. If their were, they'd win the tenders.

Finally, take the civil service alone. At the last count I have, there were (all pre-1995 staff) 18 Sec Gens (€188k), 1 dept Sec Gen (€168k) 118 Assistant Secs (€127-€148k) and 472 POs (out of the 34,000 civil servants) (€80k-€105k*) {*2 points on the higher scale are over 100k}. You're talking 140 senior staff earning clearly over €100k with another 100 POs in and around 105k. Thats not big savings.
 
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turdsl

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Would certainly have been logical. Its not the fact the SF are utterly detached from economic reality that is worrying though, it a fact they don't have any economic expertise. What is disturbing is that their repeated failure to get to grips with hard economics is endorsed time and again as genius by their followers. I have nothing in particular against SF these days, but only because I can laugh when they come out with their budget nonsense. Wrong is wrong, any party can be corrected. But on the economy SF are on a differant planet entirely.

You could say exactly the same thing about Brian Lenihan and Fianna Fail over the last 2 years, as for Richard Bruton, Well, What did he say,?
 

Kevin Doyle

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Pity there is no sustance to it, heard SF Finance spokesman on Morning Ireland and what he was proposing might bring in/save a hundred million or so - this is not what is needed. Hard decisions like reverse benchmarking, slashing the backoffice jobsworths in the public service linked to a productivity agreement that meets their remit of PUBLIC SERVANTS. An example of which would be parent teacher meetings after 5pm where parents can actually attend. Too much emphasis is being put on micro savings and not the macro problem that we actually have.

Benchmarking has been reversed already.
 

Kevin Doyle

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Leave aside the fact that Sec Gens of depts arent going hang around if their pay is cut in half (they'll go to the private sector in a heartbeat)
Who exactly will employ them?

look at Doctors, Consultants, senior management in the ESB etc.
With the exception of junior doctors all grossly overpaid.

uggled get Drumm to take the head of the HSE job at 300k, you think anyone of quality will do it for 100K. Its absolutely stupid and naive. A soundbyte of the dumbest kind.
This was the thinking that lead to our senior public servants being the best paid in the world for very little return. Senior management in the Public sector is abysmal, we dont pay peanuts but still got monkeys.
 

turdsl

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Of course its unenforceable. I never said low paid civil servants should get a pay cut, dunno where you got that from.

Leave aside the fact that Sec Gens of depts arent going hang around if their pay is cut in half (they'll go to the private sector in a heartbeat), look at Doctors, Consultants, senior management in the ESB etc.

If you struggled get Drumm to take the head of the HSE job at 300k, you think anyone of quality will do it for 100K. Its absolutely stupid and naive. A soundbyte of the dumbest kind.

The simple fact is, if you want expereinced senior staff, you have to pay them appropriately. Putting in a 100k cap, not that SF will be in a place to do it, might appeal to a certain demographic, but would result in a complete collapse in the public health service, straight off.

As for the 25%... jesus... I didnt realise thats what you meant. Its even more foolish now. Here's how such things work. You go to market with a tender for a service/product. A bunch of companies give you a price. You select the cheapest or Most economically advantageous tender. They win.

You don't/can't go and say. Thanks. Now here's 3/4's of the price. Please go do it. There ARE NOT loads of firms who can do quality consultancy work 'for less'. If their were, they'd win the tenders.
God where were you for the last 5 years, You think Mr Drum did a good job, I would hope somebody on around 60, 000 would do a much better,, Oh, Yes, we heard about CEO bankers would leave the country if they did not get their big salaries and bonuses, What a pity they were not let leave. BTW, The whole health service has collapsed due to high salaries at the top. Who were the people who bought a computer system for 220 million that never worked. So much for you argument, salaries and quality
 

civilserpant

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Who exactly will employ them?

With the exception of junior doctors all grossly overpaid.

This was the thinking that lead to our senior public servants being the best paid in the world for very little return. Senior management in the Public sector is abysmal, we dont pay peanuts but still got monkeys.
Kevin,
Theres a difference between saying *some* senior staff are overpayed, and saying they'd do the job for 100k. Most Sec Gens walk into the consultancy world when they retire. Consultants will work private instead. You wont get a head of the HSE for 100k. You won't get a head of the DAA for 100k. You won't get a head of the ESB for 100k. Etc.

When private enterprise can commonly pay CEOs €500kand senior staff 200k+, you wont have real quality in the public service/semi states. You'll get the left overs.

Put it this way. RTE pays their stars a flat 100k. TV3 signs them up for 150k. Its that on a massive scale.
 

1888bhoys

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Good to see the hight standard of debate from the ADSF shower.It,s their way or the highway.
 

civilserpant

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God where were you for the last 5 years, You think Mr Drum did a good job, I would hope somebody on around 60, 000 would do a much better,, Oh, Yes, we heard about CEO bankers would leave the country if they did not get their big salaries and bonuses, What a pity they were not let leave. BTW, The whole health service has collapsed due to high salaries at the top. Who were the people who bought a computer system for 220 million that never worked. So much for you argument, salaries and quality
Typical. Read what I said instead of what you want it to say.

Never said Drumm did a good job. I said he wouldn't take the job in the first place at that pay. No suitably qualified person would.

If you think someone would manage a 100,000 person organisation and be suitably capable of doing that - and wouldn't be snapped up for *at least* 2-3 times 100k in the private sector, then you're on drugs.
 

Fides

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Sinn Fein has had this policy since 2007. Since then both Labour and Fine Gael have copied it. Looks like it will be Fianna Fail for you!!!!
Unfortunately not impossible. I really don't want to vote FF, I believe they should be out of power but the opposition have to give you some sort of sensible choice. My comment by the way is not about the 48% tax rate, I suspect we have to have a higher rate. When it kicks in is an issue. My comment was on the amount raised from tax increases vis a vis the cuts amount. In my opinion it should be the other way round. The reality is the EU will be telling us what to do anyway even if FG/Labour do think there is a magic solution.
 

Kerrygold

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Of course its unenforceable. Its crazy! You'll have an immeidate brain drain of the best senior staff across the board of public services.
Really? Where will they go?


Leave aside the fact that Sec Gens of depts arent going hang around if their pay is cut in half (they'll go to the private sector in a heartbeat), look at Doctors, Consultants, senior management in the ESB etc.
As above.

If you struggled get Drumm to take the head of the HSE job at 300k, you think anyone of quality will do it for 100K. Its absolutely stupid and naive. A soundbyte of the dumbest kind.
I'm sure there are many brilliant people out there who would snap up the job for €100,000. And Drumm was a disaster.

The simple fact is, if you want expereinced senior staff, you have to pay them appropriately. Putting in a 100k cap, not that SF will be in a place to do it, might appeal to a certain demographic, but would result in a complete collapse in the public health service, straight off.
€100,000 is generous in current circumstances.


Finally, take the civil service alone. At the last count I have, there were (all pre-1995 staff) 18 Sec Gens (€188k), 1 dept Sec Gen (€168k) 118 Assistant Secs (€127-€148k) and 472 POs (out of the 34,000 civil servants) (€80k-€105k*) {*2 points on the higher scale are over 100k}. You're talking 140 senior staff earning clearly over €100k with another 100 POs in and around 105k. Thats not big savings
According to the Dept of Finance it would save €355 million. Small, but not insignificant.
 

turdsl

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Typical. Read what I said instead of what you want it to say.

Never said Drumm did a good job. I said he wouldn't take the job in the first place at that pay. No suitably qualified person would.

If you think someone would manage a 100,000 person organisation and be suitably capable of doing that - and wouldn't be snapped up for *at least* 2-3 times 100k in the private sector, then you're on drugs.

Why do you have to insult people on low grade pay, There are plenty people in the Health service who would do the job for much less than Mr Drum and much better, Remember again those Bankers and their big bonuses plus pensions, You have just convinced me how right Sinn Fein are on this, In fact I am sure there are thousands of people out there who would do a much better job for less.I am sure there are people in the banks who would have done a much better job than their CEOs, I bet they would not want millions either, Remember bank shares at 20 euroes now 40 pence. In fact they were no good at their job at all, which makes complete nonsense of your argument, that high salaries equal a good job.That is exactly the kind of thinking that has destroyed our country, Remember a few years ago when politicians got their rise, Bertie got 34000 of a rise. We were told we would not get the type of person of high quality for the job if we did not pay them well, Spare me, I rest my case.
 

SFInbhear

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There are alot of good proposals from Sinn Fein in this, and more importantly their is some form of job creation in the submission. It is about time their was a cap in politicians and PS pay, at least it may restore some credibility to the Irish political system. although some of the top earners do good work, their are plenty of them who are Fianna Fail henchmen, and thats the reason their there!
 

rockofcashel

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Assuming this is a fair summary

Sinn Fin wants new higher tax rate of 48% - RT News

There's no way they'll even get a last preference from me (never did anyway so no loss to them). Budget is slanted towards serious tax increases with too little spending cuts.
You see, this is a perfect example of

1. Media predjudice against SF

and

2. poster predjudice against SF

SF are not proposing a higher tax rate for all earners of 48%. Rather, they are proposing a higher tax rate of 48% for those earning over €100k.. something which is almost generally accepted as being preferable now by some of the other main political parties, for example

Labour

Labour questions €15bn adjustment figure - RT News

The thing is, that SF proposed this before the last general election, while Labour has only caught up with the idea three years later.

In that time, the higher rate would have collected over 1 billion euro.

But then again, SF are the economic slow learners eh...

Watch this space, in any 4 year plan or budget this year, there will be an increase in taxation for those earning over 100k

In fact, we already had one last year for people earning over 75k, we just called it an income levy and health levy increase
 

turdsl

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You see, this is a perfect example of

1. Media predjudice against SF

and

2. poster predjudice against SF

SF are not proposing a higher tax rate for all earners of 48%. Rather, they are proposing a higher tax rate of 48% for those earning over €100k.. something which is almost generally accepted as being preferable now by some of the other main political parties, for example

Labour

Labour questions €15bn adjustment figure - RT News

The thing is, that SF proposed this before the last general election, while Labour has only caught up with the idea three years later.

In that time, the higher rate would have collected over 1 billion euro.

But then again, SF are the economic slow learners eh...

Watch this space, in any 4 year plan or budget this year, there will be an increase in taxation for those earning over 100k

In fact, we already had one last year for people earning over 75k, we just called it an income levy and health levy increase

Just think how much better off the country would be today if some of those proposal were implemented then,
 


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