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Sinn Fein, The Property Tax, and Rates in the 6 Counties


rockofcashel

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2005
Messages
7,956
Website
www.sinnfein.ie
I think for the bazillionth time today, I've read posters talking about Sinn Féin's "hypocrisy" regarding the support of a "property tax" in the 6 counties.. but opposing a "property tax" down here.

Every time it's explained that it's not the same thing, it seems to be either completely ignored.. (in most cases).. or completely misunderstood.. (in some cases)...

Maybe a completely separate thread explaining what each is, might help some people to understand..

In the 26 counties...

A property tax is being levied on all properties* depending on a "valuation" of the price of the property.. (*subject to a small number of expemptions)...

The property tax will be paid to the central exchequer, with 80% of the monies collected being returned to the local authority from where it came to be spent on local services.

In the 6 counties

In the 6 counties, you pay "rates".. not a tax..

Your rate is a combination of a "district rate" and a "regional rate"

"Your domestic rate bill is calculated by multiplying your rateable capital valuation by the domestic rate for your council area. The domestic rate for your area is made up of the regional rate set by the Northern Ireland Executive and the district rate set by individual councils."

How rate bills are calculated | nidirect

In the 6 counties .. for your district rate provides for

bin collections and recycling
leisure centres
parks
events
council venues
street cleaning
economic indicatives
building control.

Income from the regional rate provides for

education
health
personal social services
housing
roads
sewerage
water.

Belfast City Council. Rates. What do your rates pay for?

Amongst other things..

That is why the "rate" in the 6 counties is so much higher than the property tax in the 26 counties..

Many of the services covered by the rates in the 6 counties, are paid for separately in the 26 counties.. for example bin collection, provision and upkeep of sporting and leisure facilities, school bus provision, water charges (currently for businesses but for individual households from next year) etc etc

So why do people consistently claim that SF are supporting and opposing the same thing in the two different places.. when it is clearly not the case ?
 

Ulster-Lad

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
10,092
Good explanation RoC.
 

cillian32

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
4,130
So why do people consistently claim that SF are supporting and opposing the same thing in the two different places.. when it is clearly not the case ?
Because it suits their agenda and have no problem lying about, it as they know most people will not check out the information themselfs .....and you can be sure RTE wont tell them!
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,866
bin collections and recycling
Paid for seperately.



leisure centres
Not too many of them where I come from.



The Council don't have enough outdoor staff in my EA. They have plenty of them, and plenty of parks in the EA where the Manager and Directors of Services live though.



Volunteers usually. Occasionaly get help from (excellent) library staff.



council venues
LOL! What's wanna dem eh?



street cleaning
Don't start me off!



economic indicatives
Never quite make it to my EA.




building control.
Two words: Priory Hall
 

onlyasking

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
5,735
I think for the bazillionth time today, I've read posters talking about Sinn Féin's "hypocrisy" regarding the support of a "property tax" in the 6 counties.. but opposing a "property tax" down here.

Every time it's explained that it's not the same thing, it seems to be either completely ignored.. (in most cases).. or completely misunderstood.. (in some cases)...

Maybe a completely separate thread explaining what each is, might help some people to understand..

In the 26 counties...

A property tax is being levied on all properties* depending on a "valuation" of the price of the property.. (*subject to a small number of expemptions)...

The property tax will be paid to the central exchequer, with 80% of the monies collected being returned to the local authority from where it came to be spent on local services.

In the 6 counties

In the 6 counties, you pay "rates".. not a tax..

Your rate is a combination of a "district rate" and a "regional rate"

"Your domestic rate bill is calculated by multiplying your rateable capital valuation by the domestic rate for your council area. The domestic rate for your area is made up of the regional rate set by the Northern Ireland Executive and the district rate set by individual councils."

How rate bills are calculated | nidirect

In the 6 counties .. for your district rate provides for

bin collections and recycling
leisure centres
parks
events
council venues
street cleaning
economic indicatives
building control.

Income from the regional rate provides for

education
health
personal social services
housing
roads
sewerage
water.

Belfast City Council. Rates. What do your rates pay for?

Amongst other things..

That is why the "rate" in the 6 counties is so much higher than the property tax in the 26 counties..

Many of the services covered by the rates in the 6 counties, are paid for separately in the 26 counties.. for example bin collection, provision and upkeep of sporting and leisure facilities, school bus provision, water charges (currently for businesses but for individual households from next year) etc etc

So why do people consistently claim that SF are supporting and opposing the same thing in the two different places.. when it is clearly not the case ?
Because the means justify the end - the end being the preservation of the three-ring circus that has run this state so abysmally since it came into being.

One aspect that is seldom remarked upon is that SF's working-class support in the north seems solid, which would appear to be at odds with attempts down here to argue that they're as bad or worse on austerity in the north as the Dublin govt is down here.

Good post, btw.
 

nonpartyboy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Messages
6,857
While not a shinner, this (comparing north and south) is just fg bull, that fools nobody.

If they want us to believe their lies, then they should reduce paye by the same amount as the property tax, i mean they must think we are simple. we paid for all these services though the paye system, who passed it on to the local authority.

Now they want us to pay the local authority directly, but they want to keep the general taxation booty........we are not as thick as fg/lab are.
 

mido

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
3,374
Because as you point out yourself 80% of the property tax will go to local government to provide services in addition to the block grant given and local rates from businesses etc. as you can see from the link below this is no different to NI. i am not aware of any park here that charges admission or council that does not do street cleaning, economics intiatives or events. the also do roads etc
Derry City Council - What are Rates?

health and education in the south is funded through general taxes as it largely is in NI.

bins are privately provided fro in the south and the water rates will apply in coming years -even at that, the rate in the North at present would exceed what those costs are.

and mary lou will/won't/maybe pay her water bill
RT.ie Radio 1: Morning Ireland Media Player
 

nonpartyboy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Messages
6,857
What has Priory Hall got to do with SF?
SPN is so blinded by his "get the public service to pay" mentality that he couldn't even figure out ROC was listing what your property tax gets you in the north...........the point was it gets you nothing in the republic....!
 

onlyasking

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
5,735
SPN is so blinded by his "get the public service to pay" mentality that he couldn't even figure out ROC was listing what your property tax gets you in the north...........the point was it gets you nothing in the republic....!
To be fair, it helps in the greater scheme of things to make our 'friends in Europe' like us even more than they've shown in recent years.
 

darkhorse

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
18,210
I think for the bazillionth time today, I've read posters talking about Sinn Féin's "hypocrisy" regarding the support of a "property tax" in the 6 counties.. but opposing a "property tax" down here.

Every time it's explained that it's not the same thing, it seems to be either completely ignored.. (in most cases).. or completely misunderstood.. (in some cases)...

Maybe a completely separate thread explaining what each is, might help some people to understand..

In the 26 counties...

A property tax is being levied on all properties* depending on a "valuation" of the price of the property.. (*subject to a small number of expemptions)...

The property tax will be paid to the central exchequer, with 80% of the monies collected being returned to the local authority from where it came to be spent on local services.

In the 6 counties

In the 6 counties, you pay "rates".. not a tax..

Your rate is a combination of a "district rate" and a "regional rate"

"Your domestic rate bill is calculated by multiplying your rateable capital valuation by the domestic rate for your council area. The domestic rate for your area is made up of the regional rate set by the Northern Ireland Executive and the district rate set by individual councils."

How rate bills are calculated | nidirect

In the 6 counties .. for your district rate provides for

bin collections and recycling
leisure centres
parks
events
council venues
street cleaning
economic indicatives
building control.

Income from the regional rate provides for

education
health
personal social services
housing
roads
sewerage
water.

Belfast City Council. Rates. What do your rates pay for?

Amongst other things..

That is why the "rate" in the 6 counties is so much higher than the property tax in the 26 counties..

Many of the services covered by the rates in the 6 counties, are paid for separately in the 26 counties.. for example bin collection, provision and upkeep of sporting and leisure facilities, school bus provision, water charges (currently for businesses but for individual households from next year) etc etc

So why do people consistently claim that SF are supporting and opposing the same thing in the two different places.. when it is clearly not the case ?
Seems like SF are much happier under UK legislation so
Why not just bring Ireland back into the UK ...
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,866
What has Priory Hall got to do with SF?
Nothing.

But is has everything to do with slipshod building control by the Local Authority.

Pay attention. Gobshyte!
 

ticketyboo

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
5,045
Paid for seperately.





Not too many of them where I come from.





The Council don't have enough outdoor staff in my EA. They have plenty of them, and plenty of parks in the EA where the Manager and Directors of Services live though.





Volunteers usually. Occasionaly get help from (excellent) library staff.





LOL! What's wanna dem eh?





Don't start me off!





Never quite make it to my EA.






Two words: Priory Hall
That is one of the most appalling attempts at misdirection I've ever seen on this site.
Why don't you just answer the question that ROC is asking? Is it ignorance, or plain mendacity, that causes so many on this site and elsewhere to claim that Sinn Féin engages in double speak and hypocrisy, industrial strength, when they attack them for supporting one thing in one jurisdiction and oppose it in another, when the OP proves beyond ALL reasonable doubt that the two are not the same and do not with any validity bear comparison.
And.."Priory Hall"?!
How does that make any kind of case in relation to this thread?
You have nothing to say, but you had to say SOMETHING, didn't you?
 

mido

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
3,374
SF are copying FF from 1977 with abolishing rates/local property tax- its apples and apples, rates/taxes


Department of the Environment, Heritage & Local Government - A Green Paper on Local Government

n Northern Ireland average domestic rates amount to between Stg£563 and £900 (€750 - €1,200) depending on the council area involved.

Local Government Sources of Income in Ireland

Local government spent around €10.5 billion in 2007, approximately half of which is current spending and half capital. Current expenditure is recurring spending, e.g. environmental protection, operation of water services, salaries. Capital expenditure includes expenditure on assets such as libraries, road projects, new water treatment plants etc. Local authorities generate about 58% of their current revenues from rates on businesses and from goods and services. The remaining 42% of income comes from central government, which is divided almost evenly between general-purpose grants from the Local Government Fund and specific grants and subsidies.

The majority of local authority capital expenditure is sourced from a range of Government Departments. However, local authorities have generated significant capital income in recent years from the growth in construction and the reform of the development contribution system. The Planning and Development Act 2000 allows local authorities to require developers to part fund the provision of infrastructure. The development contribution mechanisms have come to constitute a significant income stream with €2.1 billion having been collected under the last National Development Plan (2000 - 2006) and a further €2.1 billion projected to be collected during the lifetime of the current NDP (2007-2013). This revenue is being used to fund a range of key public infrastructure, such as roads, water and sewerage infrastructure, which are necessary for all housing and commerical development to proceed, and for the purposes of specific community gain such as playgrounds, recreational areas, parks etc.

Funding is also being made available for specific rail projects under the Transport 21 investment programme. Thirteen specific contribution schemes have either been adopted or are under negotiation. It is estimated that the revenue to be collected over the lifetime of these schemes, typically 20 to 30 years, will be in excess of €2 billion.

The Local Government Fund, the most important element of central government support for local authority current expenditure, is funded from the proceeds of motortax (projected at some €1,080m for 2008), supplemented by an Exchequer contribution (€545m for 2008). In total, the Fund rose from €797m in 1999 to €1.6 billion in 2008. With the significant increases in funding to local authorities through the Fund in recent years, local authorities have been encouraged to keep rate increases as low as possible.
 
Last edited:

onlyasking

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
5,735
Nothing.

But is has everything to do with slipshod building control by the Local Authority.
But the "building control" to which RoC referred, and to the mention of which you're replying, is the building control found in the north. Priory Hall isn't in the north. Did you know that?

Pay attention. Gobshyte!
Dodgey ground there pal.
 

ticketyboo

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
5,045
Nothing.

But is has everything to do with slipshod building control by the Local Authority.

Pay attention. Gobshyte!
Well, why are you posting random thoughts in an attempt to discredit the OP?
"Pay attention, gobshyte"?
Stop posting shyte, gobshyte.
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,866
But the "building control" to which RoC referred, and to the mention of which you're replying, is the building control found in the north. Priory Hall isn't in the north. Did you know that?
No I didn't know that.

I'm so stupid that I posted a reply comparing the services provided by LA's in Nordyland with the services provided by LA's in the Free State and I never knew that Priory Hall was in the Free State.

Or maybe it is you that are so stupid you can't read plain english.

We have building control in the Free State, and it is cr4p. Hence the reference to Priory Hall. The most glaring and high profile example of how cr4p it is.

Or maybe you don't know what "building control" means?


Hmmmmmm .....





Dodgey ground there pal.
Go fvck yourself. Gobshyte!
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,866
Well, why are you posting random thoughts in an attempt to discredit the OP?
"Pay attention, gobshyte"?
Stop posting shyte, gobshyte.
In what way does highlighing the problems with building control in the Free State "attempt to discredit the OP"?

Please explain that one, because it makes no effing sense whatsoever.
 

ticketyboo

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
5,045
SF are copying FF from 1977 with abolishing rates/local property tax- its apples and apples, rates/taxes


Department of the Environment, Heritage & Local Government - A Green Paper on Local Government

n Northern Ireland average domestic rates amount to between Stg£563 and £900 (€750 - €1,200) depending on the council area involved.

Local Government Sources of Income in Ireland

Local government spent around €10.5 billion in 2007, approximately half of which is current spending and half capital. Current expenditure is recurring spending, e.g. environmental protection, operation of water services, salaries. Capital expenditure includes expenditure on assets such as libraries, road projects, new water treatment plants etc. Local authorities generate about 58% of their current revenues from rates on businesses and from goods and services. The remaining 42% of income comes from central government, which is divided almost evenly between general-purpose grants from the Local Government Fund and specific grants and subsidies.

The majority of local authority capital expenditure is sourced from a range of Government Departments. However, local authorities have generated significant capital income in recent years from the growth in construction and the reform of the development contribution system. The Planning and Development Act 2000 allows local authorities to require developers to part fund the provision of infrastructure. The development contribution mechanisms have come to constitute a significant income stream with €2.1 billion having been collected under the last National Development Plan (2000 - 2006) and a further €2.1 billion projected to be collected during the lifetime of the current NDP (2007-2013). This revenue is being used to fund a range of key public infrastructure, such as roads, water and sewerage infrastructure, which are necessary for all housing and commerical development to proceed, and for the purposes of specific community gain such as playgrounds, recreational areas, parks etc.

Funding is also being made available for specific rail projects under the Transport 21 investment programme. Thirteen specific contribution schemes have either been adopted or are under negotiation. It is estimated that the revenue to be collected over the lifetime of these schemes, typically 20 to 30 years, will be in excess of €2 billion.

The Local Government Fund, the most important element of central government support for local authority current expenditure, is funded from the proceeds of motortax (projected at some €1,080m for 2008), supplemented by an Exchequer contribution (€545m for 2008). In total, the Fund rose from €797m in 1999 to €1.6 billion in 2008. With the significant increases in funding to local authorities through the Fund in recent years, local authorities have been encouraged to keep rate increases as low as possible.
Mido...with all due respect, ROC has challenged people on this thread to substantiate the allegation that Sinn Féin is engaging in double standards in respect to the charge that they promote the EXACT...EXACT same policy in the six counties which they OPPOSE in the twenty six counties, and provided supporting evidence that this is false.
Is he right or wrong in this, in your own opinion?
 
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