• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please us viua the Contact us link in the footer.

Sinn Féin V Labour


SinnShane

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Messages
360
It is clear at this stage that Sinn Féin is practically in a zero sum fight with Labour come the general election. They will be competing with us for the last seat all over the place and we both can’t win.
A lot of friends see Sinn Féin as basically a Republican version of the Labour Party and of marginal relevance to them. It doesn’t matter that the perception is fed by a lazy media and a three-party conspiracy to stifle us - we have to overcome it. And with an election fast approaching we need to have the reasons for voting Sinn Féin instead of Labour to hand.
My own view is that, as pointed out here previously somewhere, Eamon Gilmore is essentially the same as Bertie Ahern - mediocre intellect, lots of media appearances and spin, all things to everyone while dodging big decisions. They bang on about FF’s style and then they go and mimic it shamelessly. Ivan Yeats summed him on the radio one morning saying his style was more ‘followership than leadership’.
And where he lacks a hard line you can bet your last cent that this will be exploited by Enda Kenny in government.
The hope is that in the course of an election campaign the bluffing will catch up with him - the same media that hate us will do us a favour by exposing Gilmore’s guff. When the time comes we must be ready-in-waiting with concrete answers to all the issues that he ducks.
Also, for our own members and canvassers, we’re going to need to spell out why Gilmore is a spoofer and why they’re better off with Sinn Féin.
Here is a sample of some of the main differences between them and us.

Closing the gap, 2014 V 2016
Labour (along with FF, FG and the Greens) is looking to close the gap in the public finances in three years. Sinn Féin believe such rough treatment would only serve to kill an already delicate patient and urge phasing out the balance over a longer timescale. The prospective FG/Labour coalition have also indicated that they want to front-load the cuts to the tune of €6 billion at the first opportunity. Sinn Féin is certain such a blunt attack on the economy would move us from recession territory to depression.

Capital Spending
Labour has indicated their wish to either cancel or delay Metro North and other such badly needed infrastructural projects. They want one third of the cuts that they deem necessary to be made from the capital budget. Sinn Féin look at it as an opportunity to put thousands of unemployed trades people back to work at a knock down cost to the state.

Water Charges
After the customary flip-flopping Labour now seem to be on message with the government and FG re water charges. Sinn Féin say ‘no to water charges’ and suggest they start by fixing the bloody pipes! They point also to the fact that we already pay for water via general taxation and have separate plans to increase the tax take from those who are able to pay.

Education and Health
It is difficult to pin down exactly where Labour stand in these areas as Gilmore is evasive by nature (Bertie Mark II) and their web-site is vague. On the other hand Sinn Féin opposes third level fees and rejects that cuts to front-line health-care are necessary. Unlike Labour’s, the Sinn Féin web-site is laid out clearly under these areas. They also propose a far greater sharing of health and education facilities with the north.

Lisbon
Okay the campaign is over but it provides a telling insight into the differences between the two parties. One year on from the passing of the re-run of the Treaty and the Labour promise that a ‘Yes’ vote would deliver ‘jobs and investment’ has been exposed for the sham it was. They are ganging up again this week to slash the deficit by 2014 at the behest of the European Commission. Sinn Féin naturally smell the bullsh!t by now.

NI
Despite Gilmore’s membership of Official Sinn Féin there hasn’t been a peep out of him on the national question in years. On everything else he sounds a bit shifty. On this, he’s strangely silent. Sinn Féin remain committed to unfinished business and is the only party with the strategy and policies for achieving unity and independence.

Please feel free to add to the list or develop these.

**Let’s ignore the trolls on this one lads**
 
Last edited:


Molly Maguire

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
3,484
Website
www.slotpb.com
Give it no more than ten years before a large chunk of PSF joins Labour.

Would certainly makes sense in the North as well.

The Left of the SDLP could then join with them.

Modern Irish Republicans cease to be when the gun is taken out the equation.

Those who style themselves "left of center" in PSF will go home to the Labour Party.
 

bogtrotter

Well-known member
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
3,417
It is clear at this stage that Sinn Féin is practically in a zero sum fight with Labour come the general election. They will be competing with us for the last seat all over the place and we both can’t win.
A lot of friends see Sinn Féin as basically a Republican version of the Labour Party and of marginal relevance to them. It doesn’t matter that the perception is fed by a lazy media and a three-party conspiracy to stifle us - we have to overcome it. And with an election fast approaching we need to have the reasons for voting Sinn Féin instead of Labour to hand.
My own view is that, as pointed out here previously somewhere, Eamon Gilmore is essentially the same as Bertie Ahern - mediocre intellect, lots of media appearances and spin, all things to everyone while dodging big decisions. They bang on about FF’s style and then they go and mimic it shamelessly. Ivan Yeats summed him on the radio one morning saying his style was more ‘followership than leadership’.
And where he lacks a hard line you can bet your last cent that this will be exploited by Enda Kenny in government.
The hope is that in the course of an election campaign the bluffing will catch up with him - the same media that hate us will do us a favour by exposing Gilmore’s guff. When the time comes we must be ready-in-waiting with concrete answers to all the issues that he ducks.
Also, for our own members and canvassers, we’re going to need to spell out why Gilmore is a spoofer and why they’re better off with Sinn Féin.
Here is a sample of some of the main differences between them and us.

Closing the gap, 2014 V 2016
Labour (along with FF, FG and the Greens) is looking to close the gap in the public finances in three years. Sinn Féin believe such rough treatment would only serve to kill an already delicate patient and urge phasing out the balance over a longer timescale. The prospective FG/Labour coalition have also indicated that they want to front-load the cuts to the tune of €6 billion at the first opportunity. Sinn Féin is certain such a blunt attack on the economy would move us from recession territory to depression.

Capital Spending
Labour has indicated their wish to either cancel or delay Metro North and other such badly needed infrastructural projects. They want one third of the cuts that they deem necessary to be made from the capital budget. Sinn Féin look at it as an opportunity to put thousands of unemployed trades people back to work at a knock down cost to the state.

Water Charges
After the customary flip-flopping Labour now seem to be on message with the government and FG re water charges. Sinn Féin say ‘no to water charges’ and suggest they start by fixing the bloody pipes! They point also to the fact that we already pay for water via general taxation and have separate plans to increase the tax take from those who are able to pay.

Education and Health
It is difficult to pin down exactly where Labour stand in these areas as Gilmore is evasive by nature (Bertie Mark II) and their web-site is vague. On the other hand Sinn Féin opposes third level fees and rejects that cuts to front-line health-care are necessary. Unlike Labour’s, the Sinn Féin web-site is laid out clearly under these areas. They also propose a far greater sharing of health and education facilities with the north.

Lisbon
Okay the campaign is over but it provides a telling insight into the differences between the two parties. One year on from the passing of the re-run of the Treaty and the Labour promise that a ‘Yes’ vote would deliver ‘jobs and investment’ has been exposed for the sham it was. They are ganging up again this week to slash the deficit by 2014 at the behest of the European Commission. Sinn Féin naturally smell the bullsh!t by now.

NI
Despite Gilmore’s membership of Official Sinn Féin there hasn’t been a peep out of him on the national question in years. On everything else he sounds a bit shifty. On this, he’s strangely silent. Sinn Féin remain committed to unfinished business and is the only party with the strategy and policies for achieving unity and independence.

Please feel free to add to the list or develop these.

**Let’s ignore the trolls on this one lads**

Good post...
 

disgruntledcitizen

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
405
It is clear at this stage that Sinn Féin is practically in a zero sum fight with Labour come the general election. They will be competing with us for the last seat all over the place and we both can’t win.
you seem to forget the other leftists, PBP, the socialists, etc, these people will also be competing with you for the "left" seats that are available, and whilst perhaps not on a national basis could hurt you in some key battlegrounds


My own view is that, as pointed out here previously somewhere, Eamon Gilmore is essentially the same as Bertie Ahern - mediocre intellect, lots of media appearances and spin, all things to everyone while dodging big decisions.


Also, for our own members and canvassers, we’re going to need to spell out why Gilmore is a spoofer and why they’re better off with Sinn Féin.
whilst i happen to agree with you on Gilmore, what does SF have to offer in the form of leadership ?, C O'C ?? MLM (can she even get elected??), there seems to be as much a dearth of leadership in SF as there is in Labour

on policies its good to see the parties disagreeing at this stage as that can only stimulate debate, but one thing you will need to do is provide costed alternatives that are seen to be credible, simply opposing for the sake of it is pointless and the very thing many find so irritating about Labour and Gilmore at present
 

Conrad

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2010
Messages
127
If Sinn Fein were really left, they would recognise that republicanism died in 1998 and that republicanism was effectively dead. I do realise how difficult it would be for people who dedicated their life to the struggle to accept this, but its the inconvinient truth post GFA. Sinn Feins lack of merging with the other left/center left parties over the next few years would only be on historical basis, rejecting pragmatic leftism altogether.

The "northern question" has been answered, only real solidarity with the rest of the left could save sinn feins credability and stop them becoming a nationalist party. Only when 51% of northern ireland decides they want to be part of a united ireland will there be a united ireland. Even then, I fail to see how such a policy could be the prime objective of a genuine left party as it would only suggest they are in favour of fighting a British capitalist state and not an Irish/European/American/any other capitalist state.
 

Hooch

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
1,891
Capital Spending
Labour has indicated their wish to either cancel or delay Metro North and other such badly needed infrastructural projects. They want one third of the cuts that they deem necessary to be made from the capital budget. Sinn Féin look at it as an opportunity to put thousands of unemployed trades people back to work at a knock down cost to the state.
There have been plenty of objections to Metro North from business leaders and Gilmore said he'd bring some projects forward and push others back, where did he mention canceling any?

Education and Health
It is difficult to pin down exactly where Labour stand in these areas as Gilmore is evasive by nature (Bertie Mark II) and their web-site is vague. On the other hand Sinn Féin opposes third level fees and rejects that cuts to front-line health-care are necessary. Unlike Labour’s, the Sinn Féin web-site is laid out clearly under these areas. They also propose a far greater sharing of health and education facilities with the north.
Quinn's document is as comprehensive as SF's on the matter.

Water Charges
After the customary flip-flopping Labour now seem to be on message with the government and FG re water charges. Sinn Féin say ‘no to water charges’ and suggest they start by fixing the bloody pipes! They point also to the fact that we already pay for water via general taxation and have separate plans to increase the tax take from those who are able to pay.
Water charges are just an excuse to come up with more revenue, it has sweet FA to do with the actual system.

The Lisbon thing is a red herring, both sides shamelessly lied through their teeth during that referendum.
 

Oldira1

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Messages
1,467
Labour are nothing more than the STickies without policies. I will vote
Down the ticket to exclude them.
 
R

RepublicanSocialist1798

you seem to forget the other leftists, PBP, the socialists, etc, these people will also be competing with you for the "left" seats that are available, and whilst perhaps not on a national basis could hurt you in some key battlegrounds
PBP and Socialist Party support is fairly localised (for all their respective talk). In DSC PBP are battling Aengus but I'd put money that they'll either run Brid Smith (SWP member) on her own or run both her and Joan Collins (not an SWP member). Collins, if she ran on her own, would probably take the seat rather than Smith on her own. Running both would be foolish. There would be a good number of votes that would leak to Labour and SF to a lesser degree which would help O'Snodaigh.
In Cork North Central both Jonathan O'Brien or Mick Barry could take a seat instead of the second Labour candidate. I'd go for O'Brien ahead of Barry given that a) there is virtually zero SP support in Blarney and the other wards bar CNC in Cork City Council b)Barry's vote is really based in his own ward and c) Dave McCarthy an independent councillor from O'Briens ward wont be running in the next general election. He ran in 2007 and got 2,500 first preferences. The bulk of those votes will probably be split between Labour and O'Brien.
 
Last edited:

Red_93

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
4,678
It is clear at this stage that Sinn Féin is practically in a zero sum fight with Labour come the general election. They will be competing with us for the last seat all over the place and we both can’t win.
A lot of friends see Sinn Féin as basically a Republican version of the Labour Party and of marginal relevance to them. It doesn’t matter that the perception is fed by a lazy media and a three-party conspiracy to stifle us - we have to overcome it. And with an election fast approaching we need to have the reasons for voting Sinn Féin instead of Labour to hand.
My own view is that, as pointed out here previously somewhere, Eamon Gilmore is essentially the same as Bertie Ahern - mediocre intellect, lots of media appearances and spin, all things to everyone while dodging big decisions. They bang on about FF’s style and then they go and mimic it shamelessly. Ivan Yeats summed him on the radio one morning saying his style was more ‘followership than leadership’.
And where he lacks a hard line you can bet your last cent that this will be exploited by Enda Kenny in government.
The hope is that in the course of an election campaign the bluffing will catch up with him - the same media that hate us will do us a favour by exposing Gilmore’s guff. When the time comes we must be ready-in-waiting with concrete answers to all the issues that he ducks.
Also, for our own members and canvassers, we’re going to need to spell out why Gilmore is a spoofer and why they’re better off with Sinn Féin.
Here is a sample of some of the main differences between them and us.
Of course there are differences, if there weren't, they'd be the same party.
Closing the gap, 2014 V 2016
Labour (along with FF, FG and the Greens) is looking to close the gap in the public finances in three years. Sinn Féin believe such rough treatment would only serve to kill an already delicate patient and urge phasing out the balance over a longer timescale.
So Girry tells the experts they're wrong and he's right even if they have "rights".
The prospective FG/Labour coalition have also indicated that they want to front-load the cuts to the tune of €6 billion at the first opportunity. Sinn Féin is certain such a blunt attack on the economy would move us from recession territory to depression.
Which labour politician have you heard indicate this?
Capital Spending
Labour has indicated their wish to either cancel or delay Metro North and other such badly needed infrastructural projects. They want one third of the cuts that they deem necessary to be made from the capital budget. Sinn Féin look at it as an opportunity to put thousands of unemployed trades people back to work at a knock down cost to the state.
Something has to give, we cannot afford this metro. It is not urgently needed and will benefit only a small % of the population of this country.
Water Charges
After the customary flip-flopping Labour now seem to be on message with the government and FG re water charges. Sinn Féin say ‘no to water charges’ and suggest they start by fixing the bloody pipes! They point also to the fact that we already pay for water via general taxation and have separate plans to increase the tax take from those who are able to pay.
Labour has also proposed levying tax on those best able to pay, but free water is basically the council paying for part of your food, and what you use to clean yourself. Should they pay for your bread too, or your shampoo?
Education and Health
It is difficult to pin down exactly where Labour stand in these areas as Gilmore is evasive by nature (Bertie Mark II) and their web-site is vague. On the other hand Sinn Féin opposes third level fees and rejects that cuts to front-line health-care are necessary. Unlike Labour’s, the Sinn Féin web-site is laid out clearly under these areas. They also propose a far greater sharing of health and education facilities with the north.
Anyone who knows anything about Irish politics knows that labour have been vehemently opposed to 3rd level fees for the past 2 decades having abolished them under Niamh Breathnach as Education Minister in 1995, and were the first Irish party to put forward a proposal for universal healthcare almost a decade ago.
Lisbon
Okay the campaign is over but it provides a telling insight into the differences between the two parties. One year on from the passing of the re-run of the Treaty and the Labour promise that a ‘Yes’ vote would deliver ‘jobs and investment’ has been exposed for the sham it was. They are ganging up again this week to slash the deficit by 2014 at the behest of the European Commission. Sinn Féin naturally smell the bullsh!t by now.
Bit old no? Irrelevant? Personally I have not seen any change to my life or to Irish politics, economy or society - positive or negative, because of Lisbon.
NI
Despite Gilmore’s membership of Official Sinn Féin there hasn’t been a peep out of him on the national question in years. On everything else he sounds a bit shifty. On this, he’s strangely silent. Sinn Féin remain committed to unfinished business and is the only party with the strategy and policies for achieving unity and independence.
I'm not sure there's much to discuss here. We all know that a referendum is required on both sides of the border under the GFA, and for all SF's huffing and puffing on the issue, they are rather unlikely to blow the house down any time soon. This won't be a burning issue at the next GE.
Please feel free to add to the list or develop these.

**Let’s ignore the trolls on this one lads**
I do hope I'm not trolling?
 

SlabMurphy

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
1,701
Website
www.dublin.ie
If Sinn Fein were really left, they would recognise that republicanism died in 1998 and that republicanism was effectively dead. I do realise how difficult it would be for people who dedicated their life to the struggle to accept this, but its the inconvinient truth post GFA. Sinn Feins lack of merging with the other left/center left parties over the next few years would only be on historical basis, rejecting pragmatic leftism altogether.

The "northern question" has been answered, only real solidarity with the rest of the left could save sinn feins credability and stop them becoming a nationalist party. Only when 51% of northern ireland decides they want to be part of a united ireland will there be a united ireland. Even then, I fail to see how such a policy could be the prime objective of a genuine left party as it would only suggest they are in favour of fighting a British capitalist state and not an Irish/European/American/any other capitalist state.
So if their was a United Ireland - you'd like to see the IRA shooting and bombing the 32 county state for the ' revoulotion's ' sake ?
 
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
96
I don't fully agree that SF and LAbour are in a zer sum game. There are places where it is very unlikely that SF would get elected eg Wexford while similarly it is unlikely that Labour will pick up a seat in Donegal while it is quite possible that SF will. Not quite a zero sum game there. In Dublin on the other hand it probably is.
 

ocoonassa

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Messages
6,130
Really to join or follow a faction that subverts the democratic process is treason against the people. As a people I think we're about ready for governance arrived at by the consensual logic of truly independent representatives of the people.

Instead of this we have eejits braying adversarial rhetoric at each other across the floor of a chamber in which they have seats because of the sides people's grandparents took in the Civil War. You'd think any leftists and Republicans on the island would recognise that fact.

IMO the party system here has to be finished before there can be a Republic. Whoever isn't part of the solution is part of the problem in my view. There are some people in both SF and Labour that I would consider voting for, but I would never vote for them so long as they put The Party in front of my interests, and clearly when they are in a party that is what they will do. It's only human.
 

ymmek

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Messages
3,047
The shinners trump card was voting for the bank bailout,that crucial vote was a stroke of genius and just in case voters forget we shall remind them ha ha.
 

Conrad

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2010
Messages
127
So if their was a United Ireland - you'd like to see the IRA shooting and bombing the 32 county state for the ' revoulotion's ' sake ?
Don't recall saying that. I meant fight in a broader sense. I wouldn't envisage a situation in which the IRA would exist in a United Ireland, so no. I would like to see a revolutionary mass movement in any state, regardless of what name you put on said state.
 

SlabMurphy

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
1,701
Website
www.dublin.ie
The shinners trump card was voting for the bank bailout,that crucial vote was a stroke of genius and just in case voters forget we shall remind them ha ha.
:rolleyes: No SF ddin't vote for the bank bailout :rolleyes:

Legislation in the Dáil must go through a number of stages to be agreed, five to be specific. At the end of each stage the Dáil must agree that it moves to the preceding stage, and then there's a final vote, the fifth stage, on the bill.

At an early stage in the discussions around the bank guarantee scheme (Credit Institutions Bill 2008) Sinn Féin supported the legislation moving to the next stage. This was not a vote for the bank guarantee. It couldn't have been. The agreed text of the bank guarantee hadn't even been finalised. As Sinn Féin made clear at the time, the party was opening to supporting the final version if certain amendments were made. Labour on the other hand, opposed it outright.

When the final version of the legislation to give effect to the bank guarantee scheme came before the Dáil the changes Sinn Féin had requested were not in it. Accordingly, the party voted against it: Dil approves terms of guarantee scheme - RT News

Simples.
 

setanta

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Messages
649
:rolleyes: No SF ddin't vote for the bank bailout :rolleyes:
Shinners really are smarting on this one. SF DID VOTE FOR THE BAILOUT. That's a matter of public and Dáil record. They were called upon by a corrupt and discredited government to don the green jersey and pony up for the bankers. They responded like the good little boys they are. Only once they understood the scale of the catastrophe they had voted for, and understood that they has been clearly outfoxed by Labour who could smell a sham-patriotic rat when it poked its head out, they turned tail and ran from their original position.

No amount of dissembling and hair-splitting by SF will hide the fact that when they were called upon to support the Irish people against the banks they make a very bad judgement call and only later copped on to just how shameful their support for the government had been.

"simple" ... LOL
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
1,757
That's an excellent post Sinnshane. You don't fancy crossing the floor and joining Labour do you? No.

We have a dearth of good leaders. Everyone in the ring has the personality of a frog in permanent hibernation. Hopping from one subject to another then sleeping as the storm rages over them.

There must be someone out there with tons of courage, clout, brains, leadership and a handsome face. There has to be.
 

Oldira1

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Messages
1,467
Shinners really are smarting on this one. SF DID VOTE FOR THE BAILOUT. That's a matter of public and Dáil record. They were called upon by a corrupt and discredited government to don the green jersey and pony up for the bankers. They responded like the good little boys they are. Only once they understood the scale of the catastrophe they had voted for, and understood that they has been clearly outfoxed by Labour who could smell a sham-patriotic rat when it poked its head out, they turned tail and ran from their original position.

No amount of dissembling and hair-splitting by SF will hide the fact that when they were called upon to support the Irish people against the banks they make a very bad judgement call and only later copped on to just how shameful their support for the government had been.

"simple" ... LOL

Care to show us that please?
 

setanta

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Messages
649
Care to show us that please?
Hurts being caught out dissembling, doesn't it, oldie! Even slab concedes that SF supported the original bill.

It's a shame that rather than just accept that O Caolain and company made a huge error and move on, SF are struggling to wriggle away from their original decision and present it as something other than the p1ss-poor judgement call it was. Best of luck to you comrade, but people down here have grown weary of SF spinning. That's part of the reason why the wheels have come of the Southern project.
 

New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top