Six Eyes? Should Ireland Aspire to Joining the UKUSA agreement?

ruserious

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement

The United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand not only form the Anglosphere, but together they share intelligence en masse via the UKUSA Agreement, of which Five Eyes is a component part.

Government confirms it raised bugging with US | Irish Examiner

According to this article, the Irish government has in the past been concerned with US bugging in Ireland but it is claimed that instead, the U.K. spies on Ireland "from top to bottom" and shares its results with the other Five Eyes.

Ireland is is hopelessly incapable of defending itself from cyber attacks and is a weaklink in the intelligence community in the Western World.

It has been argued therefore that Ireland should start by setting up a dedicated intelligence service separate from AGS and G2.

State needs dedicated, stand-alone intelligence service

Ireland, is outside the “5 eyes” intelligence agreement between Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the UK and the US. These five generally do not spy on each other, but being outside this agreement means you are fair game. Ireland is between three of the five, and relies overwhelmingly for its communications on fibre-optic cables easily accessed by these countries’ intelligence agencies.
Irish officials encrypt pitilessly little of their communications – it must be assumed that third-parties, including the NSA and Britain’s Government Communication Headquarters, dip in and out of the most sensitive Irish government policy discussions.
Evidence that we as a nation take intelligence security not very seriously is clear from the GSOC scandal a couple of years ago.
A UK security company, Verrimus, for example, was asked to investigate alleged bugging at the office of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission.
Allowing former UK security personnel access to sensitive government information is a security risk. In negotiations over Ireland’s debt or historical inquiries in Northern Ireland, the government’s position will occasionally differ from close allies like the UK.

It cannot be assumed that British or other nationals will always act in the interest of their temporary paymaster. Patriotism has an enduring pull for men and women who have spent years in the military or intelligence services.
Perhaps, as the saying goes, "if you can't beat them, join em" holds some relevance for this country.

The geopolitical climate is uncertain with the rise of terrorism and cyber hacking, we need to move forward and start taking Intelligence seriously. We should start by creating a stand alone intelligence service and perhaps we should eventually aspire to becoming the sixth pair of eyes in the UKUSA agreement.


If you wish to learn more about Five Eyes, the below link is an excellent source covering the history and what gets shared.
https://www.privacyinternational.org/sites/default/files/Eyes Wide Open v1.pdf
 
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Polly Ticks

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A tricky set of variables, OP...

We do need to refocus (and possibly reinvigorate) intelligence efforts.. still too many resources expended monitoring scumbag dissidents and extreme loyalists when there are other security risks we need to pay attention to.

IMO, the Republic should put resources into a covert program, designed to find a way to steal intelligence from the UK, which spies on Ireland --every single voice call and data packet in the country-- from top to bottom.

Our geographical proximity is an asset here as is the freedom of movement between the two countries. We might pick up other useful intelligence along the way.

Off to the Cheltenham races, you might say, and a bit of eavesdropping on the way.

Regarding joining with 5 eyes.. not a pleasant prospect.

However, in this fantasy scenario, should the covert plan above fail, then I can see possible merit in joining, especially in a future United Ireland as it could help tackle the loyalist and nationalist extremism that would likely unfold in such a scenario.

We should start by creating a stand alone intelligence service and perhaps we should eventually aspire to becoming the sixth pair of eyes in the UKUSA agreement.
Yes to the first part.. maybe to the 2nd.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement

The United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand not only form the Anglosphere, but together they share intelligence en masse via the UKUSA Agreement, of which Five Eyes is a component part.

Government confirms it raised bugging with US | Irish Examiner

According to this article, the Irish government has in the past been concerned with US bugging in Ireland but it is claimed that instead, the U.K. spies on Ireland "from top to bottom" and shares its results with the other Five Eyes.

Ireland is is hopelessly incapable of defending itself from cyber attacks and is a weaklink in the intelligence community in the Western World.

It has been argued therefore that Ireland should start by setting up a dedicated intelligence service separate from AGS and G2.

State needs dedicated, stand-alone intelligence service



Evidence that we as a nation take intelligence security not very seriously is clear from the GSOC scandal a couple of years ago.
Perhaps, as the saying goes, "if you can't beat them, join em" holds some relevance for this country.

The geopolitical climate is uncertain with the rise of terrorism and cyber hacking, we need to move forward and start taking Intelligence seriously. We should start by creating a stand alone intelligence service and perhaps we should eventually aspire to becoming the sixth pair of eyes in the UKUSA agreement.


If you wish to learn more about Five Eyes, the below link is an excellent source covering the history and what gets shared.
https://www.privacyinternational.org/sites/default/files/Eyes Wide Open v1.pdf
A simple criteria should be applied.

Will it create 1000's if not more, of high paying long term jobs in Ireland?

If Yes, good idea.

If No, bad idea.
 

ruserious

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A simple criteria should be applied.

Will it create 1000's if not more, of high paying long term jobs in Ireland?

If Yes, good idea.

If No, bad idea.
Well that's not a very good gauge. I'm sure CAB probably has less than a 100 staff yet everyone except the crims would agree it is a good idea.

But I would envisage that an Irish Intelligence Agency would result in a lot of good quality jobs.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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Well that's not a very good gauge. I'm sure CAB probably has less than a 100 staff yet everyone except the crims would agree it is a good idea.

But I would envisage that an Irish Intelligence Agency would result in a lot of good quality jobs.
I know about CAB. I think CAB is great.

However an intelligence spying aparatus such as GCHQ, needs 100's at miniimum to work in it, 100's to maintain listening services such as large steerable dishes, sat coms, tapping services, supercomputer maintenance, database maintenance, data center maintenance, power maintenance, etc, etc. It would work out at least a few hundred working in the service and a couple of thousand for the maintenance and back up facilities at bare miniumum.

It would be best based in central or western Ireland, to give good job creation in depressed and deprived areas.
 

Dearghoul

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A simple criteria should be applied.

Will it create 1000's if not more, of high paying long term jobs in Ireland?

If Yes, good idea.

If No, bad idea.
If that's the only criterion, and the thousands of high paying jobs would be created at public expense, then I'm sure existing civil service strategists have ideas which would not involve raising up Junior Executive types to indulge in elaborate games of counter espionage.
 

Man or Mouse

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement

The United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand not only form the Anglosphere, but together they share intelligence en masse via the UKUSA Agreement, of which Five Eyes is a component part.

Government confirms it raised bugging with US | Irish Examiner

According to this article, the Irish government has in the past been concerned with US bugging in Ireland but it is claimed that instead, the U.K. spies on Ireland "from top to bottom" and shares its results with the other Five Eyes.

Ireland is is hopelessly incapable of defending itself from cyber attacks and is a weaklink in the intelligence community in the Western World.

It has been argued therefore that Ireland should start by setting up a dedicated intelligence service separate from AGS and G2.

State needs dedicated, stand-alone intelligence service



Evidence that we as a nation take intelligence security not very seriously is clear from the GSOC scandal a couple of years ago.
Perhaps, as the saying goes, "if you can't beat them, join em" holds some relevance for this country.

The geopolitical climate is uncertain with the rise of terrorism and cyber hacking, we need to move forward and start taking Intelligence seriously. We should start by creating a stand alone intelligence service and perhaps we should eventually aspire to becoming the sixth pair of eyes in the UKUSA agreement.


If you wish to learn more about Five Eyes, the below link is an excellent source covering the history and what gets shared.
https://www.privacyinternational.org/sites/default/files/Eyes Wide Open v1.pdf
Headed up no doubt, by the most intelligent minister we ever had, Mr Biffo Cowen.
 

Dearghoul

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A tricky set of variables, OP...

We do need to refocus (and possibly reinvigorate) intelligence efforts.. still too many resources expended monitoring scumbag dissidents and extreme loyalists when there are other security risks we need to pay attention to.

IMO, the Republic should put resources into a covert program, designed to find a way to steal intelligence from the UK, which spies on Ireland --every single voice call and data packet in the country-- from top to bottom.

Our geographical proximity is an asset here as is the freedom of movement between the two countries. We might pick up other useful intelligence along the way.

Off to the Cheltenham races, you might say, and a bit of eavesdropping on the way.

Regarding joining with 5 eyes.. not a pleasant prospect.

However, in this fantasy scenario, should the covert plan above fail, then I can see possible merit in joining, especially in a future United Ireland as it could help tackle the loyalist and nationalist extremism that would likely unfold in such a scenario.



Yes to the first part.. maybe to the 2nd.
Do not, under any circumstances, rely on information from GCHQ, or any of its operatives, for racing tips.

Notoriously unreliable on the matter of future events, your intelligence types, no matter how near the racecourse.
 

ruserious

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I know about CAB. I think CAB is great.

However an intelligence spying aparatus such as GCHQ, needs 100's at miniimum to work in it, 100's to maintain listening services such as large steerable dishes, sat coms, tapping services, supercomputer maintenance, database maintenance, data center maintenance, power maintenance, etc, etc. It would work out at least a few hundred working in the service and a couple of thousand for the maintenance and back up facilities at bare miniumum.

It would be best based in central or western Ireland, to give good job creation in depressed and deprived areas.
I don't think you could find the Staff outside of a large population zone.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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I don't think you could find the Staff outside of a large population zone.
So Cork or Galway hasn't the staff. I think they do.

Actually even Letterkenny can supply a few thousand IT staff to various companies.

It is doable.
 
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ruserious

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So Cork or Galway hasn't the staff. I think they do.

Actually even Letterkenny can supply a few thousand IT staff to various companies.

It is doable.
You wouldn't be looking for bog standard IT guys. Nor the average civil servant. You'd want people with a brilliant analytical mind as well as knowledge and experience of geopolitical events and has a duty to their country unparalleled with most jobs. I don't think you could get that many people with such qualities outside of Dublin.
 

jmcc

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With corresponding rent allowances and proper pay, yes. :p
Nah. :) People with brilliantly analytical minds are generally in the game for the challenge rather than money. Besides, there's too much concrete in Dublin and not enough trees.
 

cyberianpan

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Ireland does not have the capacity to develop either the il/legal collections techniques of say the NSA

Juncker the Drunk et al want an EU Army and Security Agency ... Juncker the Drunk quite correctly imagines such an entity will keep him and his in brandy for evermore

The 5eyes folks would like Ireland to be formally onboard - as it would make certain DMA collections easier...or indeed feasible

The OP says this

(a) Ireland is is hopelessly incapable of defending itself from cyber attacks and is (b) a weaklink in the intelligence community in the Western World.

(c) It has been argued therefore that Ireland should start by setting up a dedicated intelligence service separate from AGS and G2.
Regards (a) : cyber assurance should probably be separate to SigInt collection ...just saying
Regards (b) : the Irish State is weak in the area of Intelligence, that does not mean that Intelligence in Ireland is weak
Regards (c) : certain economies of scale problems present ...I'd suggest a hybrid, where we might rely on say Canada for much of the foreign intelligence analysis ...and then do the rest here

cyp
 

Karloff

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According to this article, the Irish government has in the past been concerned with US bugging in Ireland but it is claimed that instead, the U.K. spies on Ireland "from top to bottom" and shares its results with the other Five Eyes.

Ireland is is hopelessly incapable of defending itself from cyber attacks and is a weaklink in the intelligence community in the Western World.

It has been argued therefore that Ireland should start by setting up a dedicated intelligence service separate from AGS and G2.
The US/UK etc intel services work for a handful of corporations and Israel and those in the agencies themselves, little else. If we did develop one it would have to avoid being a tool either for our own political parties (eg RA obsessive for FFG) or for international agendas like zionism, NATO, the NWO, you name it. It would not be let loose to do what it wants, it would only be tasked to work in areas where an intelligence service is needed and only for the strict benefit of the State, not some 'international order'. The last requirement would rule out membership of 'five eyes'.

The US/UK agencies are cancerous tumors at this stage because they were allowed to do what they want and then set the agenda - now you have them interfering in their own countries elections in the US particularly. They violate international law as a matter of course, they defy the US Senate and delete their own files when they want.
 

cyberianpan

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The US/UK agencies are cancerous tumors at this stage because they were allowed to do what they want and then set the agenda - now you have them interfering in their own countries elections in the US particularly.
Exactly how might US agencies be interfering in US elections ?

cyp
 

Karloff

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cyberianpan

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So based off an ex CIA dude ...who is Republican ...urging a vote for Hillary ...comes this assertion of yours
The US/UK agencies are cancerous tumors at this stage because they were allowed to do what they want and then set the agenda - now you have them interfering in their own countries elections in the US particularly.
Hmmmmm


cyp
 


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