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roc_

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Great essay here from Taleb:


"... Peace between Israelis & Palestinians cannot happen from the top... Arabs fighting to the last Palestinian... One of the problems of the interventionista - wanting to get involved in other people’s affairs “in order to help” — results in disrupting some of the peace-making mechanisms that are inherent in human affairs... the error continues because someone else is paying the price..."

I have long argued that the agendas of Iran, their proxies Hezbollah and Hamas, the anti-Zionist left, the Arab league, the Assads, Irish republicans, the Muslim OIC countries in the UN, and the long, long list of other factions, do not align really with the agenda, and interests of ordinary Palestinians.

Compare what Taleb is saying above with what the likes of those who purport to represent the interests of the Palestinians say. E.g.


In a similar vein you have the so called anti-Zionists sitting outside in the peanut gallery of the Middle East always urging the Palestinians to hold out for more, feeding their hatred, or to plant one more bomb etc...
 

roc_

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I recall recently well articulated also by this Palestinian, taking BDS alone as just one example of the dynamic playing out:


"... Let me put it another way,” he continued. “The Europeans are sacrificing the Palestinians for their own political interests...”
 

roc_

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And of course the sacrifice of the Palestinian refugees.


Obviously it's hard to see the real life, the real people, when one is so far removed from it all...
 

Golah veNekhar

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Great essay here from Taleb:


"... Peace between Israelis & Palestinians cannot happen from the top... Arabs fighting to the last Palestinian... One of the problems of the interventionista - wanting to get involved in other people’s affairs “in order to help” — results in disrupting some of the peace-making mechanisms that are inherent in human affairs... the error continues because someone else is paying the price..."

I have long argued that the agendas of Iran, their proxies Hezbollah and Hamas, the anti-Zionist left, the Arab league, the Assads, Irish republicans, the Muslim OIC countries in the UN, and the long, long list of other factions, do not align really with the agenda, and interests of ordinary Palestinians.

Compare what Taleb is saying above with what the likes of those who purport to represent the interests of the Palestinians say. E.g.


In a similar vein you have the so called anti-Zionists sitting outside in the peanut gallery of the Middle East always urging the Palestinians to hold out for more, or to plant one more bomb etc...
There would have been a peace that all could have lived- which is what people like General Peled on the Jewish side strove for, however the North American Jewish community was much too powerful and so it could not happen despite irresponsible sell out indigenous Palestinians trying to do their best with the crumbs they were offered. The Arab League has totally sold out the Palestinians after the destruction of Libya. The whole push for war with Iran at the moment in the United States shows that the issue of Palestine does not effect only indigenous Palestinians and Jews living there. The nature of the Jewish State as an international hub for organized crime shows that the issue has quite a wide reach. The Jewish campaign to whip hysterical hatred of Islam and Muslims as such, and I know some Muslims behave badly here which does not help things, and is solely essentially down to Palestine shows that the issue has a much wider reach.

The idea that Hamas is an Iranian Proxy is insane- things are massively more complex than that and Hamas has a huge range of opinion within it. Islamic Jihad in Palestine might more justly be called an Iranian proxy- however again things are much more complex than that and essentially come down to them sharing the same Islamic humanist values as the Islamic Republic of Iran. The founder of Islamic Jihad in Palestine was suffering a prolonged existential and intellectual crisis because he was thorn between Marxism one the one hand and the Muslim Brotherhood on the other, than the revolution happened in Iran and through studying it and the thinkers behind it he saw that he could combine the best of Marxism and the best of Muslim Brotherhood while leaving behind the bad things in both.

The vast majority of Jews, nearly all of the Jews who identify with Zionism do not want actual reconciliation with the indigenous population- one because they have power and so feel no need to, they can mass murder the indigenous population with no pain coming to them, but beyond that there is the fact that doing so would mean facing up to extremely painful truths for them.

Just look at the reaction to Peter Beinart's essay recently. Jews cannot reach a secure reconciliation with the indigenous population which is somewhat just at least because it will harm the ability of Jews to write poetry according to Rabbi Marc Golub- who is very influential and Reform- and Daniel Gordis. And what Peter Beinart was advocating was compatible with Jewish tribalism- he admits that he is a tribalist more than he is a universalist.
 

roc_

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“And I believe one thing. I believe the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will be solved only by the Israelis and the Palestinians. Without any third party. Because as a Palestinian, I know what I want. I know that the Israeli knows well what he wants. We can solve it...
 

Golah veNekhar

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And of course the sacrifice of the Palestinian refugees.


Obviously it's hard to see the real life, the real people, when one is so far removed from it all...
Why not just let them home? They are the responsibility of the the Jews by the way.
 

Golah veNekhar

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“And I believe one thing. I believe the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will be solved only by the Israelis and the Palestinians. Without any third party. Because as a Palestinian, I know what I want. I know that the Israeli knows well what he wants. We can solve it...
What about the North American and European Jewish communities when it comes to third parties? He is an atheist with an "if you cannot beat them make lots of money from them telling them what they want to hear" character, there are others like him. Interesting though that you promote him and not indigenous Peaceniks such as Ayman Odeh who as mild and meek as he is would tell you a lot of things that you do not want here. Without the Jewish Lobby in the United States there would be an arrangement that a large majority could live with.
 

roc_

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Well, a good example of the anti-Zionist sitting outside in the peanut gallery of the Middle East always urging the Palestinians to hold out for more, feeding their hatred, or to plant one more bomb etc. No doubt an extreme example.
... In fact a large problem with the Palestinian Solidarity and Palestinian national movement is too much sympathy for their enemies...
... Any type of real reconciliation would mean Palestinian Jews facing their national guilt...
Something that might actually do something to lessen the plague is national repentence.
Etc. :rolleyes:
 

roc_

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The biggest proxy in the conflict is America.
Do you agree then with your compadre Golah above who stated on here that Hamas should shift a terrorist focus onto US soil and target top "Zionists" there?
 

Golah veNekhar

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Obviously it's hard to see the real life, the real people, when one is so far removed from it all...
[/QUOTE]


Of course you do not give a damn about these kids, and we talking here about a Jewish pummeling and not a few Muslim hard slaps. Lots of jokes about the "Jewish mother", basically none though about the "Jewish father".....Why do you think Caroline Glick is the way she is? You will say Hamas or the Cossacks or the Nazis. Total cop out. The family is the building block of society and as such has to be protected, however family can go horrifically wrong, I have experienced this personally, and remember when I was at University a Muslima moaning (can I say kvetching?) about her father beating her once over some boy and asked "what did he do?" which came down to basically three hard slaps across the face and a punch in the arm, my reaction to this was to roll my eyes and said to her straight out "that is not beating, stop pitying yourself and be glad you ever thought that was a beating" which shut her up. On a side note the thing about Muslims is that sometimes they act like Christians and sometimes they act like Jews, and you do not know which will next be coming out of them- I like Muslims a lot but I have zero tolerance when I am actually dealing with them for any kvetching out of them apart from one girl who did not grow up Muslim and has lived a life that would make the hairs of head stand up but through it ultimately has come out things always a woman of principle despite everything working against that. I know why Caroline Glick is the way she is and a lot of other Jewish psychos like her, because I have personally lived it. My father actually beat me up- and beat up my sister worse and more often, and beat up my mother again worse and again more often. I have watched my sister get actually hospitalized. I most certainly have messy parts of my personality because of all this however the New Testament gave me the tools to work through most of the damage done and come out of it.

In Palestine you are looking at several societies which have been shattered through the whole Settler Colonial project and it's working out. In very many ways the Jewish societies, especially some of them (the healthiest Jewish society is actually the Haredi for all their high weirdness and pathologies), are more shattered than the indigenous ones (again though in all justice the Haredi are actually the least effected by everything), who considering the sheer sadism of a lot that has been thrown at them are holding up relatively okay or even well when everything that has been inflicted on them is taken into consideration. You talk about "skin in the game"- well this is the thing, I have an immense concern for the battered, drug addicted, raped (we are of course to feel compassion for Jews when they get triggered by people being compassionate towards indigenous Palestinians- feeling compassion for the Jewish victims of the Jewish rape culture in Palestine I am sure you consider "anti-Semitic"), alcoholic and generally messed up kids of the "Development Towns" and nightmares like "Zion Square" because I can see myself in them, I have been through similar though not admittedly been in their situation which obviously seems totally hopeless and helpless. You have difficulty seeing yourself in any Goy and most definitely in an indigenous Palestinian, which is why you take the approach you do. I don't have any difficulty though in seeing myself in a Palestinian Jew.

Again what you accuse others of you- you yourself are guilty. Palestinian Jews are cartoon characters for you, not real flesh and blood and soul and spirit, who live in a nearly perfect only a bit distorted because of the sheer seething irrational hatred and general craziness of the indigenous population. The whole situation for you understood through the prism of your own guilt towards your thoughts, feelings and actions about the local non-Jewish population here which makes you want to have somewhere to run to and blind tribal Jews which reasons that "Israel MUST be the most wonderful, ethical society on earth because well, well they are Jews, and that should settle things". The psychological, emotional and ethical cost to Jews living in Palestine and not living as a bourgeois degenerate nihilist in Tel Aviv or completely caught up in a world of Talmudic and Kabbalahistic disputes in Bnei Brak is lost on you. Maybe even more lost on you the sufferings of the indigenous population which you very mildly acknowledge though of course you believe that they are principally blame for them.

Before you make your next credit card donation to the "Campaign Against Anti-Semitism" or "Ireland4Israel" think at least for a minute about instead donating to Elem which is a Jewish organization trying to work with and bring some basic human dignity to the kids within the green line, mostly Jewish, who are most at risk and/or in trouble. Of course all they are doing is placing plasters on wounds- but that itself does not negate their worth. Only really Islamic Jihad in Palestine has the vision, intellect, courage and compassion to really heal the damage down to both Jews and indigenous Palestinians in Palestine, not even the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine has that. May Hashem, who is a father to the fatherless and the defender of set upon women, He who rides upon the Cherubim and made Leviathan to frolic with, grant them victory, swift and thorough, in our day.

 

roc_

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Now they've moved on from a discussion about conflict resolution to the old "Well, Jews are monsters..." discussion. It's hard to keep up.

I thought I had this bumbling bigot on ignore, back on now.
 

Golah veNekhar

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Well, a good example of the anti-Zionist sitting outside in the peanut gallery of the Middle East always urging the Palestinians to hold out for more, feeding their hatred, or to plant one more bomb etc. No doubt an extreme example.

Etc. :rolleyes:
The reason that the Oslo Process messed up was to a large part down to Jews realizing that reconciliation of any serious sort would mean them facing up to the sordid history of the Zionist movement and panicking. Even Jeremy Ben-Ami admits that the Jewish organized community in the United States has been largely to blame for the "Two State Solution" becoming an impossibility. Even though the organized Jewish communities in the West do everything they can be silence their voices and the voices of those who care about them indigenous Palestinians are not allowed to talk about their Metropole and even struggle within themselves to deny the fact that the organized Jewish communities in the West are their enemy- though post the Corbyn dramas I don't see how anyone can deny that. I hold in high regard indigenous Palestinians such as Muhammad al-Asi and Nahida Izzat who say outright that Jewish Religious Civilization is at war with us- yes I know that Nahida, who is actually an amazingly beautiful soul, wants all the Jews who supported the mass murder of her people which is the vast majority of them in Palestine (we can look into some of the stuff that even Meretz has supported to go elsewhere), cry me a river though because if you were indigenous Palestinian with the same personality that you have now you would be advocating what Alex Linder does for the global Jewish population, and also she has a massive heart so if and when the Settler Colonial project is dismantled she might well change her mind. The thing I hate most about the whole situation is the constant gas lighting of the indigenous population.
 

Golah veNekhar

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Now they've moved on from a discussion about conflict resolution to the old "Well, Jews are monsters..." discussion. It's hard to keep up.

I thought I had this bumbling bigot on ignore, back on now.
Where did I say "Well Jews are monsters"? That is you twisting what I said to fit into how you would like the world to be. The post was actually expressing empathy and compassion for the forgotten Jewish victims of the conflict.
 

font

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I have long argued that the agendas of Iran, their proxies Hezbollah and Hamas, the anti-Zionist left, the Arab league, the Assads, Irish republicans, the Muslim OIC countries in the UN, and the long, long list of other factions, do not align really with the agenda, and interests of ordinary Palestinians.
Why "ordinary Palestinians" don't protest? Why they support Hamas?
 

Golah veNekhar

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Why "ordinary Palestinians" don't protest? Why they support Hamas?
Indeed if there elections now for the "Palestinian Authority" Hamas, the Islamic Jihad in Palestine and the PFLP who are secular but actually anti-colonial would be swept to power. roc_ though is opposed to the so called Palestinian Authority suppressing and brutalizing these people- however he is keen on Jews doing that. Put yourself in indigenous Palestinian shoes- if you were in their shoes you would be Alex Linder.
 

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