Snip Shell to Save Citizens!

Fraxinus

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Under the current system the government has to adopt some of the McCarthy proposals or else the country will be bankrupted, there's no doubt about that.
But if the state took control of the Corrib gas field massive slash and burn cuts could be avoided and public sector reform could be implemented gradually.
I don't accept the argument that this will hurt our international reputation as,
(a) This is a high revenue natural resource, completey different to most of our other dealings with multi-nationals.
(b) The minister who brokered that deal has been found out in an Irish court to be a crook.
(c) Some compensation should be given to Shell for construction work carried out.

What I can't believe is that left of centre Labour is not championing this. It along with the rest of the left parties will rightly oppose the cuts but the money has to come from somewhere.

Which is now more important pandering to an oil giant or saving our citizens from more hardship?

<Mod> This thread has been merged with "Cost of Gas deal". </Mod>
 
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Tommy Tayto

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I don't wish to be rude here, but we've already had fifty thousand threads discussing this over and over and over and over. Do we really need a new one?
 

Fraxinus

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I don't wish to be rude here, but we've already had fifty thousand threads discussing this over and over and over and over. Do we really need a new one?
Probably not but I'd still like to know why Labour wouldn't support this idea as an alternative to massive all out cuts seeing that they are the largest leftish party in the Dail.
 

davehiggz

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This would mean that the project would be a huge bureaucracy. Over paid public sector workers with cushy pensions and secure employment backed by hundreds of administration staff "overseeing" the work.
It'd be run at a loss, Shell however will do it at a profit, some of which we'll get and so will the local economy.
 

Fraxinus

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Hello Nationalised Small Gas Field, Goodbye International Investors.
Why? What investors?

It could be run as a semi-state and make a profit if the right management was brought in. Look what Willie Walsh did for Aer Lingus. And the whole purpose of nationalizing it would be to plug part of the hole in the public finances so it isn't in their interests to create another bureauracracy.
The local economy of Mayo is going to mean jack******************** if the country goes bankrupt anyway.
This is a high revenue resource, something we don't have a lot of.
 

Panopticon

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Why? What investors?

It could be run as a semi-state and make a profit if the right management was brought in. Look what Willie Walsh did for Aer Lingus. And the whole purpose of nationalizing it would be to plug part of the hole in the public finances so it isn't in their interests to create another bureauracracy.
The local economy of Mayo is going to mean jack******************** if the country goes bankrupt anyway.
This is a high revenue resource, something we don't have a lot of.
Anyone who thought their capital was safe can think again. That includes Irish people by the way.

It means an end to any future energy exploration in Ireland.

Theft is also immoral, especially if the reason for our financial need is a lack of political will.
 

FakeViking

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This would mean that the project would be a huge bureaucracy. Over paid public sector workers with cushy pensions and secure employment backed by hundreds of administration staff "overseeing" the work.
It'd be run at a loss, Shell however will do it at a profit, some of which we'll get and so will the local economy.
The Harneyesque spin:

'over paid public sector workers'

'cushy pensions'

'Shell will do it at a profit'

The reality:

Shell handed for practically nothing a fantastic resource.

Instead of doing it the 'normal' way (i.e. an expensive offshore platform in the rough Atlantic), they experiment with an on-shore refinery as they're allowed to offset ANY costs against their tax bill.

Given that, instead of the logical way of doing things (i.e. having the refinery at the landfall, which could be virtually anywhere in Mayo), they run an experimental 40k pipeline across land they don't own, and are allowed to by legislation passed by a corrupt and incompetent government.



I'm all for utilising our natural resources, and I'm all for finding penal accomodation for life with child molesters and rapists for the likes of Burke, Ahern and their chums who gave away our 'North Sea'.
 

merle haggard

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only the level of utter incompetence and corruption which believes it actually a good thing to give our resources away for free to a multinational could do the job on the irish economy these corrupt incompetents have done

(b) The minister who brokered that deal has been found out in an Irish court to be a crook.
2 ministers brokered the deal . One was indeed convicted crook Ray Burke . His deal was further enhanced by minister bertie ahern a little later where shell received even more generaous terms . Both deals were carried out behind closed doors and against the advice of senior civil servants .
 

merle haggard

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This would mean that the project would be a huge bureaucracy. Over paid public sector workers with cushy pensions and secure employment backed by hundreds of administration staff "overseeing" the work.
It'd be run at a loss, Shell however will do it at a profit, some of which we'll get and so will the local economy.

stick your trickle down , hidden hand of the free market ideological lunacy and ballsology where the sun does not shine . Your ballsology is what has completely bankrupted this country and half the world . Its a fraud , stop insulting our intelligence by telling us giving billions of our resources away for free in the middle of the worst recession modern Ireland has ever seen is a good idea . Its not even a stupid idea . Stupid as a word does not do your idea justice .
This is an act of criminality , of corruption . National treason . Treason .
 

FakeViking

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only the level of utter incompetence and corruption which believes it actually a good thing to give our resources away for free to a multinational could do the job on the irish economy these corrupt incompetents have done



2 ministers brokered the deal . One was indeed convicted crook Ray Burke . His deal was further enhanced by minister bertie ahern a little later where shell received even more generaous terms . Both deals were carried out behind closed doors and against the advice of senior civil servants .
But Ahern conveniently didn't have an (onshore) bank account at the time, he just won the money on the nags. And he still doesn't have a TCC although he banks an enormous salary and a ridiculous pension (simultaneously) from a bankrupt economy.

Can I be the next ghost writer for his daughters please? I can make up such utter nonsense and dress it up as facts!
 

Middleaged

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How much would we pay Shell for exploration & developement costs unless you are suggesting we do a Venezula?
If Marathon are to get somehwere in the region of $400 for 18% for their stake, you'd be looking at over a billion dollars plus. A premium would also be paid since contracts are being broken

Given that there is about 650bcf (estimated) down there it wouldn't make that much of a profit.
 

ManOfReason

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The reality:

Shell handed for practically nothing a fantastic resource.
Technically they were handed for practically nothing the right to spend their own money to explore for a possible 'fantastic resource.'
 

Fraxinus

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Anyone who thought their capital was safe can think again. That includes Irish people by the way.

It means an end to any future energy exploration in Ireland.

Theft is also immoral, especially if the reason for our financial need is a lack of political will.
This natural resource is different to other forms of capital, that is pretty obvious.

If the government is ready to sub-contract out exploration work I'm sure there will be willing clients.

What is immoral is that the most vulnerable people in society are going to get a rollicking from October on because of incompetent government policy and an internationally corrupt banking sector. All the while there is one of few natural resources that we have off our coast being sold off by an oil merchant that was one of the biggest profit making companies in the world a few years ago if not still. Can you tell me how that isn't immoral? If its because there is a legal contract that just means it is legal it doesn't mean it is morally correct.
 

Indyjoe

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Cost of Gas deal

In light of An Board Snip's report, is it not time for the state to renegotiate the conditions of the deal with Shell which were made by Ray Burke in 1992?

Independent estimates conservatively puts the worth of the Corrib and other fields at plus 50 billion euro. Under the present terms of the deal, we will see a pittance of that money and that not until Shell recovers its costs.

Will the state renegotiate the deal, at least to take us in line with the tax and royalty conditions of other countries?
 

Galmor

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In light of An Board Snip's report, is it not time for the state to renegotiate the conditions of the deal with Shell which were made by Ray Burke in 1992?

Independent estimates conservatively puts the worth of the Corrib and other fields at plus 50 billion euro. Under the present terms of the deal, we will see a pittance of that money and that not until Shell recovers its costs.

Will the state renegotiate the deal, at least to take us in line with the tax and royalty conditions of other countries?
No to renegotiation of taxes, or anything else for that matter. Let the current system unfold and produce the benefits which are needed for both the Irish economy, and for national energy usage as a whole. We cannot afford to be seen to back down, or to start placing new burdens on Shell as there is the risk they may pull-out, thus leaving us with an untapped and valuable resource which we cannot access.
 

merle haggard

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Hello Nationalised Small Gas Field, Goodbye International Investors.
nonsense . its only goodbye to international investors who are only prepared to engage in investment deals by way of brown envelopes in secret . Deals are renogotiated all the time . Other countries even jail their officials for corruption , jail those who make corrupt payments to them . Theyre queing up to get into cuba . Businessmen know that if theres a profit to be made someone else will step in to make it if they dont.

the reality is the only people who will be annoyed are shell , exxon and tony oreillys newspaper chain , another man who doesnt believe in paying anything for irish resources . theres more than one gas field out there , oil too .
 

merle haggard

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No to renegotiation of taxes, or anything else for that matter. Let the current system unfold and produce the benefits which are needed for both the Irish economy, and for national energy usage as a whole. We cannot afford to be seen to back down, or to start placing new burdens on Shell as there is the risk they may pull-out, thus leaving us with an untapped and valuable resource which we cannot access.
cop yourself on , burdens on shell . They dont even have to sell us any gas . Most of its been promised in advance to france and belgium .
 

merle haggard

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This natural resource is different to other forms of capital, that is pretty obvious.

If the government is ready to sub-contract out exploration work I'm sure there will be willing clients.

What is immoral is that the most vulnerable people in society are going to get a rollicking from October on because of incompetent government policy and an internationally corrupt banking sector. All the while there is one of few natural resources that we have off our coast being sold off by an oil merchant that was one of the biggest profit making companies in the world a few years ago if not still. Can you tell me how that isn't immoral? If its because there is a legal contract that just means it is legal it doesn't mean it is morally correct.

immoral people of course will not be able to tell you its immoral . They will instead tell you its actually good for you , that you will benefit from it . A shell executive may well buy his celebratory champagne from an irish shop . Or let a cleaner have the butt of his cigar ( or might just prosecute the cleaner for theft , who knows with the rich) . Its called trickle down economics .
 


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