Soaring numbers of pupils give up on Irish

Should Irish be compulsory in schools?

  • Yes

    Votes: 459 54.9%
  • No

    Votes: 377 45.1%

  • Total voters
    836
  • Poll closed .

Riadach

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They should split it for Leaving Cert into two subjects, one with a focus on speaking and writing it. The other as a literature course. And get rid of the 10% marks bonus. We don't cover English grammar for the Leaving Cert it is assumed but we need to do it for Irish as we don't speak it every day.
Unfortunately, learning literature is quite a good method of acquiring a language.
 


W..R.H

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Oct 31, 2008
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Irish will continue to die unless they reform the spelling and start teaching just one dialect.

Its insanity to try and teach kids 3 different dialects simultaneously + use an defective bastardised spelling system (due to the botched transliteration to Latin in the 1960's)

Make Irish easier to learn and kids will learn it. Take the example of Welsh - which is written phonetically - and people actually learn, and use it.
This.

The idea of having to listen to Donegal Irish in Aurals for example when you know feck all about the dialect is madness and completely unreasonable.
Also the aurals count for 20% of your overall mark already.
 

USER1234

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I dont think that you be compulsorly forced to learn irish in school,

If people are intrested go to a night class for it, that way you wont be forcing it on people (which is what happens in school!) & you'll be with a group of people who are there & actually want to learn the language!!!
 

Speedfreak

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Dec 4, 2008
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1,651
Yes - The whole pre-english part of our culture is contained in the words, idioms, expressions, and tenses of the Irish language. Even, our whole way of thinking before we began to assimilate newer cultures... I'm not saying that this assimilation of the new was a bad thing - but just that we ought to hold the old precious too. And on a practical level, in a globalised economy where competitive advantage will be drawn more and more on our ability to differentiate ourselves from competitors, we may wish to go back and draw on this rich archive of our quintessential uniqueness.
 

Riadach

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Irish will continue to die unless they reform the spelling and start teaching just one dialect.

Its insanity to try and teach kids 3 different dialects simultaneously + use an defective bastardised spelling system (due to the botched transliteration to Latin in the 1960's)

Make Irish easier to learn and kids will learn it. Take the example of Welsh - which is written phonetically - and people actually learn, and use it.
But Irish is written phonetically, just with a different orthography. Bar certain instances (such as trá which favours the Conamara dialect and ignores the ulster and munster pronunciations) the Irish spelling system is remarkably consistent and unambiguous.
 

The OD

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Until someone can sit down and dispassionately answer the question as to why approximately 50% of my (Hons) Irish education comprised of the 11 irregular verbs instead of learning to speak it properly then what can people expect?

As it stands, my Irish 'education' was an utter joke.
 

Tiernanator

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Jun 2, 2007
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345
Can you imagine if an englsh newspaper or website had a poll saying "should english be taught in all schools" or some such question. The anti Irish language brigade are on their hobby horse again. Scvmbags the lot of them.
 

dlohan

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Dec 16, 2008
Messages
23
The Scottish Perspective

Hi folks,

As someone who now lives in Scotland and who went to an Irish primary school I just want to add the following comments -

1. There is so much inscribed over here in Edinburgh and Glasgow on the buildings and signs in Gaelic and yet I'm one of very few that understands it. Even the sign when one arrives in Queen Street Station in Glasgow says "Sraid na Banrionn". The point is that the discontinuation of our language cuts us off from understanding a huge portion of our history, culture, and heritage. Much of what was written was written in Irish.

2. It is very badly taught. I went to an Irish primary school. It really only catered for those who came from the Gaeltacht. There are believe it or not folks only 12 irregular verbs in the whole Irish language. The rest just follows the rule. How on earth can it be so hard? Look at French - you have entire book of irregualr verbs. In Irish everything follows the rule. In fact the Israeli Mossad (secret service) are said to use it - it is so easy - and secure because who speaks Irish in the middle east?

3. In Scotland, there is a move, albeit a very slow one, towards independence. It is purely aspirational right now and may never progress. The Scottish Govt (fomerly Scottish Executive) have now seen the light and want as part of the identity to reclaim in some Gaelic. The smallest effort is costing £14 million to put Gaelic names on road signs. And nobody understands them.

I take great pride in my country, our people and having lived abroad for several years now I do believe that we should be proud of what we have. Our language is part of it. Look at the progress over the course of recent years - our own TV channel in Irish.

We are an intelligent and well-educated bunch of people. This is something I appreciate more and more with the passage of time. If we can't learn Irish what is the hope of our learning more complex languages.

Funnily enough Scotland a few years ago (about 3 to 4) said that they realised that Wales and Ireland took the correct course of action in preserving the language. Now that it is damaged beyond repair in Scotland they miss it.

Let's take the torture out of Irish. And teach it properly.

My two cents!
 
C

cenfath

The bigger news in that article is that some Educational Psychologists are clearly making false claims about children having learning disabilities. If they are incapable of learning Irish then they should be incapable of learning another language.
From my own experience in school, I can't see how this could be happening - children don't just automatically receive an exemption because they have "learning difficulties". I also doubt there are many psychologists out there who will put down a false diagnosis just to earn some cash! Why would any professional jeopardise their reputation and livelihood like that? It's not like there's a shortage of clients waiting for educational psychologist, both public and private.

There are set criteria under which a child is entitled to an exemption, and I've only seen exemptions being granted in cases where the child is genuinely struggling with English, let alone Irish. In the case of foreign nationals they make be fluent in another language already which would be why a lot of children are capable of studying another language. In case anyone would like to see why a child may be exempt, this is from the Department's circular for schools:

" Pupils in the following circumstances may be allowed to substitute any other subject from the list of approved subjects for Irish for the purpose of Rule 21 (1) (a) and (b):-

(a) Pupils whose primary education up to 11 years of age was received in Northern Ireland or outside Ireland;

(b) Pupils who were previously enrolled as recognised pupils in a primary or second-level school who are being re-enrolled after a period spent abroad, provided that at least three years have elapsed since the previous enrolment in the State and the pupil is at least 11 years of age on re-enrolment;

(c) Pupils

(i) who function intellectually at average or above average level but have a Specific Learning Disability of such a degree of severity that they fail to achieve expected levels of attainment in basic language skills in the mother tongue, or


(ii) who have been assessed as having a general learning disability due to serious intellectual impairment [i.e. mental handicap] and are also failing to attain adequate levels in basic language skills in the mother tongue.

(iii) who have been assessed as having a general learning disability due to serious sensory impairment, and are also failing to attain adequate levels in basic language skills in the mother tongue.

The evidence of such a disability should be furnished by a qualified psychologist, supported in the case of (iii) by a report from an appropriate medical specialist. In addition, a full report on the pupil should be furnished by the school.

(d) Pupils from abroad, who have no understanding of English, when enrolled, would be required to study one language only, Irish or English."

The circular also has criteria for a psychologist in determining whether a child should be entitled to an assessment.
 

USER1234

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Jan 31, 2009
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Can you imagine if an englsh newspaper or website had a poll saying "should english be taught in all schools" or some such question. The anti Irish language brigade are on their hobby horse again. Scvmbags the lot of them.
1) While irish might be the first language of ireland on paper the defacto (& in reality) fact is that english is our first language

2) when you insult somebody because of there views it destroys the validity of your arugment!!!
 
D

Deleted member 17573

1) While irish might be the first language of ireland on paper the defacto (& in reality) fact is that english is our first language

2) when you insult somebody because of there views it destroys the validity of your arugment!!!
Even if it had any validity in the first place !!
 

USER1234

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The bigger news in that article is that some Educational Psychologists are clearly making false claims about children having learning disabilities. If they are incapable of learning Irish then they should be incapable of learning another language.
This seems a little trolly as threads on this point have already been closed by the admins
 

Fred Johnston

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Jan 22, 2009
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No, I cannot agree that Irish should be compulsorily taught in schools, and quite clearly a lot of other people, including pupils, don't either. The idea of trying to raise the position of Irish by ghettoising the Gaeltachts hasn't worked; we live in a European context now and, whereas it is important to keep our native language, it will not be kept, as it were, by force. Recently I contacted an Irish-language publisher who refused to publish or even consider a manuscript written by a native of the Gaeltacht because it was written in English. This is nonsense, and reflects the dependency of such publishers on grant-aid, of course; which in turn reflects the very one-eyed view of the government on the matter.
 

fhtb

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Irish isn't part of my past. I don't see why I should learn about someone elses, because that's the only argument being presented here to keep it compulsory.

How much money would the state save by binning compulsory Gaelic?
 

mark80

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Jan 30, 2009
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Can you imagine if an englsh newspaper or website had a poll saying "should english be taught in all schools" or some such question. The anti Irish language brigade are on their hobby horse again. Scvmbags the lot of them.
Well, the thing you seem to have forgotten is that to the vast majority of people in this country Irish is like a foreign language. English is the language that most people in Ireland use every day. I think Irish should be optional after the junior cert. But each student should have to choose a second language, whether it be Irish, German or whatever. Many people dont have the same emotional attachment to the language as you have. I personally would rather spend my time learning a language that is useful and to be honest Irish is not very useful. That doesnt make me any less Irish than you, just less sentimental.
 

Riadach

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No, I cannot agree that Irish should be compulsorily taught in schools, and quite clearly a lot of other people, including pupils, don't either. The idea of trying to raise the position of Irish by ghettoising the Gaeltachts hasn't worked; we live in a European context now and, whereas it is important to keep our native language, it will not be kept, as it were, by force. Recently I contacted an Irish-language publisher who refused to publish or even consider a manuscript written by a native of the Gaeltacht because it was written in English. This is nonsense, and reflects the dependency of such publishers on grant-aid, of course; which in turn reflects the very one-eyed view of the government on the matter.
Simply enough, it's not their remit. There are plenty of English language publishers in the country. Did you feel you would be more successful sending it to an Irish language publisher because you thought their standards were lower?
 

Fr. Hank Tree

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Feb 1, 2007
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Irish will continue to die unless they reform the spelling and start teaching just one dialect.

Its insanity to try and teach kids 3 different dialects simultaneously + use an defective bastardised spelling system (due to the botched transliteration to Latin in the 1960's)

Make Irish easier to learn and kids will learn it. Take the example of Welsh - which is written phonetically - and people actually learn, and use it.
Beg may air ash
Taw on modra egg toffin
Iz ma lum cawka millish
Coo-ig too guh dee on shoppa innay ogus kee-annig too coopla praw-tee
Vee on green egg tannive
Cod iz anum dit?
Guh rev meela mah agut!!
 

Riadach

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12,817
Irish isn't part of my past. I don't see why I should learn about someone elses, because that's the only argument being presented here to keep it compulsory.

How much money would the state save by binning compulsory Gaelic?
Little or none. The state is not going to reduce the hours in the school week, and teachers still need to be paid. The hours and money being spent teaching Irish now, will only be spent teaching other subjects. You might think you'll be getting better value for money, but you might also think that the DoE produces thousands of fluent Francophones every year as a return on its investment in French language education.
 

Beau

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May 6, 2009
Messages
16
Yes, I believe that it should continue to be taught in our schools, otherwise it would surely die out.

On saying that, I think that it could be taught in a more effective way, enticing students to take an interest and converse in our native tongue.

Personally, I love the language and would like to see it being promoted among the youth today as being more than just a subject in school but as part of our Irish identity.
 


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