• It has come to our attention that some users may have been "banned" when they tried to change their passwords after the site was hacked due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software. This would have occurred around the end of February and does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you believe you were affected by this, please contact a staff member or use the Contact us link at the bottom of any forum page.

Social Partnership not only destroyed the Labour Movement but also the country


SKELLY

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
3,120
Before i begin this isnt a right-wing rant.
I would be left leaning and would have voted labour in the past but never again. Im not sure il vote again tbh.

For those who dont remember or are to young in 1987 the country embarked on a process that imo directly lead to the disastoris position we now find ourselves.

The original good intentions of "social partnership" lead to the end of any sense of protest as well as the end to any meaningful oppossition. The agreements were used by successive gov. notably the Ahern lead ones to buy of any dissentors.

FF were always great for not fighting aggressors but instead assimilating them into there agenda. The social partnership agreements were instrumental in this philosophy.

Il give you one example. Barnardos, Its number one funding source is now the state. Was this always the cases?
no, but what better way to get rid of the trouble makers then to throw money at them. Once they became hooked then they could be reigned in. A good proof of this was the childrens referendum. No opposition whats so ever.

This very same mechanism was used to great effect with the unions and i believe the original socialist workers party and democratic left lads, notable De Rosa, Gilmore and Rabbitte spotted this new mechanism early on. The labour movement was on the way out and these old hands then embarked on a process to take over the Labour Party.
Safe in the knowledge that the unions both private and public were so into the gov. that they could count on easy and successive terms.

Following 23 years of social partnership the Irish trades unions (ICTU) entered the new decade seriously weakened and with union employee density down to 31% compared to a density highpoint of 62% in the early 1980s preceding the series of seven corporatist social pacts.[SUP][2][/SUP] Union penetration is highly imbalanced with a density approaching 80% in the public sector and around 20% in the larger private sector. Union members are now more likely to be over 45, married with children, Irish-born with third-level qualifications and working in semi-professional occupations, especially in the health, education or public administration sectors, rather than the traditional image of being lower-paid vulnerable, low-skill workers



But now its all starting to unravel. But its not coming from the core unions, its coming from the likes of the Gardai and the others who still have some self respect and might i had some idea of whats going on.

Of course social partnership brought alot of good but that imo is all but gone after 2008.

Im sure this theory isnt new and probably ill thought out so i assume others can add and possibly elaborate more.
 

Big Brother

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
2,732
Not ill thought out at all

Slot on

I recommend a book called "Advisors or Advocates" by Orlaigh Quinn (publshed by IPA)

It aint easy reading

But it thoroughly diagnoses the disease you have very well summed up
 

greengoose2

Well-known member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
25,444
Well then, it's time the TU membership stopped funding their Rolls Royce "betters" by simply leaving the union. There was a time when the union officials had to collect the money from the members and bring it to the branch. Now they have the subs taken directly from their wages and the officials only have to trot out excuses. Useless practice and the losers are?
 

NeilW

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
4,634
I blame the invention of the wheel. That's where it all went wrong.
 

Andrew49

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 2, 2008
Messages
6,046
Twitter
AndrewSB49
Were the Irish Labour Party ever other than supplicants - either at the table of the unions or the tables of other, large and small, political parties?

Labour marks success as 'participation' in Government and not as moving Ireland towards a just, equitable and decent society.
 

NeilW

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
4,634
Is this the point where we all pile in with a short description of our impressions of a political party we dont like?
 

Andrew49

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 2, 2008
Messages
6,046
Twitter
AndrewSB49
Is this the point where we all pile in with a short description of our impressions of a political party we dont like?
That comes later in the thread when the 'socialism' of Labour is compared to the 'socialism of [insert political party here]
 

Thac0man

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
6,482
Twitter
twit taa woo
Im sure this theory isnt new and probably ill thought out so i assume others can add and possibly elaborate more.
Your OP is well laid out and accurate. Unions have become institutionalised and part of the national administration, something that Bertie Ahern achieved. Anything outside of the administration is no longer its concern.

The ICTU now functions as an overseer of agreements between the exchequer and its remaining membership, it has voluntarily reduced its mandate to simply that. It has abandoned its traditional role along with its traditional membership. So now the ICTU's role is to engage in what are internal tustles with the government for what it sees as its share of exchequer income. Its telling that in this time of deep crises the unemployed and private sector worker rarely get a look in on any ICTU initiative, and are only called on to come out and support those who enjoy renumeration they can only dream of. But these calls were so transparent and trite that they have even stopped making them.

Despite hardships ordinary workers in Ireland are experiencing, the ICTU's continued quest to spend hundreds of millions on new buildings for itself (with civic centre and theatre) instead of helping cater to the needs of the hard up, is illustrative of what the ICTU are now and who they give a fig about. Should this glittering folly ever be built, any real socialist in this country would be doing the nation and his or her ideal a favour if they put a match to it.
 

Windowshopper

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
9,011
Well then, it's time the TU membership stopped funding their Rolls Royce "betters" by simply leaving the union. There was a time when the union officials had to collect the money from the members and bring it to the branch. Now they have the subs taken directly from their wages and the officials only have to trot out excuses. Useless practice and the losers are?
. . . or the members could sit up and vote out the union officials.
 

greengoose2

Well-known member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
25,444
. . . or the members could sit up and vote out the union officials.
Goodpoint but the RR leadership have the members convinced that the fat salaries they awarded themselves are proof that they are doing a great job! Coming out from Croke Park discussions with lower wages and higher working hours is hardly negotiating! We won't even discuss the Gardai reps apart from the humiliation of the Callanan/Shatter fiasco of jack boot management.
 

leftsoc

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 8, 2005
Messages
2,848
Before i begin this isnt a right-wing rant.
I would be left leaning and would have voted labour in the past but never again. Im not sure il vote again tbh.

For those who dont remember or are to young in 1987 the country embarked on a process that imo directly lead to the disastoris position we now find ourselves.

The original good intentions of "social partnership" lead to the end of any sense of protest as well as the end to any meaningful oppossition. The agreements were used by successive gov. notably the Ahern lead ones to buy of any dissentors.

FF were always great for not fighting aggressors but instead assimilating them into there agenda. The social partnership agreements were instrumental in this philosophy.

Il give you one example. Barnardos, Its number one funding source is now the state. Was this always the cases?
no, but what better way to get rid of the trouble makers then to throw money at them. Once they became hooked then they could be reigned in. A good proof of this was the childrens referendum. No opposition whats so ever.

This very same mechanism was used to great effect with the unions and i believe the original socialist workers party and democratic left lads, notable De Rosa, Gilmore and Rabbitte spotted this new mechanism early on. The labour movement was on the way out and these old hands then embarked on a process to take over the Labour Party.
Safe in the knowledge that the unions both private and public were so into the gov. that they could count on easy and successive terms.






But now its all starting to unravel. But its not coming from the core unions, its coming from the likes of the Gardai and the others who still have some self respect and might i had some idea of whats going on.

Of course social partnership brought alot of good but that imo is all but gone after 2008.

Im sure this theory isnt new and probably ill thought out so i assume others can add and possibly elaborate more.
Spot on. Partnership destroyed the movement like dry rot. That and the ridiculous salaries.
 

Thac0man

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
6,482
Twitter
twit taa woo
. . . or the members could sit up and vote out the union officials.
To late, the majority of those who can vote are those the ICTU do represent. Its no crime that they represent massively more Public sector than Private sector workers, but its verging on the criminal that the ICTU continues to enjoy the special status and the access it does, when it is only the voice of one section of the Irish workforce.

Under the PPP the ICTU evolved to become what it is now, and if that falls short of what it should be, thats the fault of its leadership. Workers in the private sector have been abandoned, and given the degree to which they have suffered and how little there is on offer, its disgraceful that no one has come forward to represent them. Socialism in Ireland is what has become institutionalised, and those outside the institution are not represented. Die hard fist cleching Leftist windbags in the Dail have been busy looking the other way.

But to be fair, this is a situation that has developed over time. As the PPP progressed, the failure of sucessive governments to develop and promote sustainable industrial growth has led to some strange ideas. For instance, we should become a 'research and knowledge driven economy'. Very noble sounding, but what about the long term unemployed, those in manual labour or the low qualified? That is the majority of our workforce no matter what spin is put on in. We have heard the mantra about a 'smart economy' again and again during the boom, as we tottered towards inevitable collapse. The Fianna Fail/Green government and the ICTU developed a model economy using the Publc service as its ideal, and confused actual GDP contributive productivity with money gained from costly borrowing and Stamp duty. After the crash the ICTU then engaged in promoting the concept that sustaining high pay on borrowed money had a 'trickle down' affect that benefitted everybody. Now that claim was one that rabid pro-free marketeers developed and preached, and it was ludicrus then and still is now. Yet it aptly shows just how far to the right the institutionalised Left has drifted.

If we had progressive Leftism in this country, it would be engaged in negotiations with employers and government to develop profit sharing models in the priviate sector to encourage stake holding and long term employment. But what we have is a left that is so illogically and deeply hostile to private industry that the workers themselves are not even a consideration.
 

NeilW

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
4,634
This is all such b/s.

No attempt to analyse the real impacts (positive and negative) of the social partnership approach. No attempt to compare with countries where social partnership was implemented (well or badly) or with countries where there was none.

Just a load of prejudiced twaddle followed by the unbelievable conclusion that all our woes are caused by social partnership with no arguments in favour stronger than they happened in the right order.
 

LamportsEdge

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
21,894
My own reading of the economic history of the 80's and 90's is not so far off the OPs. I remember the economy of the late 70's and early 80's limping along fairly tragically trying to keep up with demands for wage rises and a monstrous social welfare system. The one chance the Irish economy got to get ahead of these inflationary pressures was in the Social Contract between government and unions to allow a period of wage restraint to change that paradigm and let the economy get ahead of those pressures. That was perhaps the Irish economie's finest moment where the good of the country overall peeked out of the ditch of sectional interests.

From there the momentary advantage and breathing space the economy got was lost in the descent of the Social Partnership into a series of political bribes- the demands were trailing just after the growth figures in the economy but the distance between them narrowed dramatically and of course the growth figures were based on a fake economy built out of the forge of a fanned boom.

For a period there, and this is borne out by European finance reports on the Irish economy presented in Brussels while Brian Lenihan was in the room, wage settlements were reaching double figures in the noughties- I recall the reports detailing 7-11% wage increases in the public sector. This was only possible economically if one treated the by then utterly fake growth figures in the Irish economy as factual.

This policy of distortion encouraged by successive administrations reached its high tide mark when the senior levels of the civil service were awarded 'performance' bonuses of up to 15% of annual salary by Charlie McCreevy's 'performance review quango on which sat a former director of Anglo-Irish Bank and a former Director of the Independent News Group. No one knows or can measure what 'additional performance' above and beyond salary agreements was being paid for there and this bonus system- in reality no more than a blatant political bribe offered to and taken by the Secretary Generals and Deputy Secretaries- was hurriedly buried by Kevin Cardiff and co within the Dept of Finance in 2008.

The biographies of the directors of the 'performance review' board were altered in the official news from the Dept of Finance to drop the embarrassing references to Anglo Irish Bank director and Independent News Group director. That says it all.

I have never seen a more stark admission of the collusion between civil servants and Fianna Fail in the blatantly mythical Celtic Tiger economy- born out of a tiny moment of breathing space in the late 1980s and over time deliberately hothoused into a mythical economic Tir Na N'og now drowned beneath the waves.
 

menapia

Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
29
What killed the Union movement in Ireland was the concept of parity of esteem in the early days of social partnership the Unions demanded parity of esteem with the Dept, officials they were dealing with so they were granted that and jumped on the gravey train, game over for the mugs toiling away at the coalface. Native cunning and guile always wins out in Ireland.
 

LamportsEdge

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
21,894
What killed the Union movement in Ireland was the concept of parity of esteem in the early days of social partnership the Unions demanded parity of esteem with the Dept, officials they were dealing with so they were granted that and jumped on the gravey train, game over for the mugs toiling away at the coalface. Native cunning and guile always wins out in Ireland.
There is something to this. The other point is that every union member currently whinging is failing to question why the same union leaders who quite blatantly got into bed with the bribery system operated by the government are still in place.

I don't know what union members expect from a union leadership so obviously bought members of the establishment but if they are expecting those union leaders to suddenly snap out of it and remember they are supposed to be representing rank and file workers then they deserve everything they have coming to them.

The Croke Park Agreements are simply the continuation of the Social Partnership Agreements by another name. And while the fake boom was on then the union membership could expect wage agreements and ignore the little tickle the union leaders got out of it from lunch with party leaders at the Merrion and the rest. But what they can expect now is a covert series of agreements towards austerity and to be managed by that same union leadership into acceptance of the austerity policies.

If union members won't throw out the overpaid collaborators then they fully deserve every little betrayal heading their way from their so-called leadership.

I see no austerity policies among TDs and Senators. And if the union rank and file accept a situation where austerity policies are not visibly applied at the top and from there down then they deserve what is coming to them. Same as the electorate generally.
 

turdsl

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
26,085
Well then, it's time the TU membership stopped funding their Rolls Royce "betters" by simply leaving the union. There was a time when the union officials had to collect the money from the members and bring it to the branch. Now they have the subs taken directly from their wages and the officials only have to trot out excuses. Useless practice and the losers are?
I remember it well, I opposed it. it was the start of a slippery slope that led to Bertie and highly paid union officials doing
deals over pints of Bass in the backrooms of hotels,which brings us up to the last few weeks when we saw former union officials,now ministers in government combine with present day highly paid union officials to extend working hours. cut pay and if members do not vote for this the
government will tear up the present agreement,Lets just hope none of those people on either side of the table will show disrespect to the name James Connolly by using his name in Vain
 

LamportsEdge

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
21,894
Connolly would have swept away what is laughably called the union leadership in Ireland. Bloody overcompensed clerks on the make and delivering lambs up for the austerity slaughter. Any union leader who sits across the table from a TD and bargains with one of the noticeable few who are exempt from austerity policies is a fake.
 

Big Brother

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
2,732
Were the Irish Labour Party ever other than supplicants - either at the table of the unions or the tables of other, large and small, political parties?

Labour marks success as 'participation' in Government and not as moving Ireland towards a just, equitable and decent society.
Labour had their snouts in the trough in the 1980s.

Then FF learned how to do it better.

Which is why Labour are bitter that they weren't better than FF

And that doesn't make them better at running the country. Just bitter.
 
Top