Social Welfare Reform?

Ultor

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Mar 24, 2010
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144
This may have been proposed on previous threads but:

I would have no problem paying my taxes, or even increasing taxes (God forbid) if I was confident that my hard earned (open to interpretation;) ) cash was not fraudulently claimed in Social Welfare.

Of the c. €20 Bn we spend on Social Welfare how much is fraudulently claimed?

Lets say 5% or €1 billion is fraud. (Seeing as the department themselves saved 500 million through the detection of fraud in 2008)

2009 » Press Releases » Press Office » Department of Social Protection

We could save this, among other savings by switching social welfare from a cash system to a debit card (or any chip and pin type) system.

Instead of receiving cash into your hand you pay for groceries, school books, clothes, esb, gas etc. with your debit card, (looks exactly the same as any other debit card so people won't feel victimized!)

Before anyone says, 'what about people who get their food from street vendors without card machines?' fear not, you could allow a certain amount of cash to be withdrawn from an atm (say €50 per week) to allow some non-card purchases.

Benefits:

1. Social Welfare cards can be set up so that they do not work abroad, therefore only people in receipt of social welfare who reside in the state can avail of their welfare here.
2. Gov't can track the receipt of all social welfare payments and allowances into the account of each individual providing a joined up system of payment monitoring.
3. It might be be possible to prevent/limit the purchase of alcohol or cigarettes (with the subsequent health benefits) with the use of the card but that would drastically lessen the tax take on those products, and might not go down too well with those who would prefer to spend every penny they receive on those things.
4. The debit card system reduces the cost of operating post offices on Dole day. (Bit of a stretch with that one but anyway!)
5. Social Welfare money is transmitted to the account of an individual allowing revenue/CAB to assess if a person is making money by another means
6. €1 Bn saved means €1 Bn less in tax we have to pay or €1 Bn more available to other budgets (Or to f%@k into the big black bank hole)

Costs:

1. For 500,000 people on the live register, if the cost per card was, I'm guessing €50 then that's €25million. (I imagine it's less but given our history with rolling anything out in this country!)
2. A bit of hassle


Anybody?

[sits down with a cup of coffee and awaits the arrival of the lynch mob;)]
 


firefighter

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Sep 21, 2010
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334
Handing out €205 + rent allowance to able bodied men is a joke.

We should halve that figure.
 

Ultor

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Mar 24, 2010
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144
Handing out €205 + rent allowance to able bodied men is a joke.

We should halve that figure.
Fair enough, but I was wondering if we could get a handle on the massive fraud that takes place first then worry about the actual allowances later?
 

firefighter

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I don't believe social welfare recipients should have their dole halved, unless landlord's dole is also cut by at least the same amount.
 

Ultor

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Ok so we know firefighters stand on whatever he's on about but what about the change in system?
 

idle tim

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Mar 19, 2010
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3,050
This may have been proposed on previous threads but:

I would have no problem paying my taxes, or even increasing taxes (God forbid) if I was confident that my hard earned (open to interpretation;) ) cash was not fraudulently claimed in Social Welfare.

Of the c. €20 Bn we spend on Social Welfare how much is fraudulently claimed?

Lets say 5% or €1 billion is fraud. (Seeing as the department themselves saved 500 million through the detection of fraud in 2008)

2009******»******Press Releases******»******Press Office******»******Department of Social Protection

We could save this, among other savings by switching social welfare from a cash system to a debit card (or any chip and pin type) system.

Instead of receiving cash into your hand you pay for groceries, school books, clothes, esb, gas etc. with your debit card, (looks exactly the same as any other debit card so people won't feel victimized!)

Before anyone says, 'what about people who get their food from street vendors without card machines?' fear not, you could allow a certain amount of cash to be withdrawn from an atm (say €50 per week) to allow some non-card purchases.

Benefits:

1. Social Welfare cards can be set up so that they do not work abroad, therefore only people in receipt of social welfare who reside in the state can avail of their welfare here.
2. Gov't can track the receipt of all social welfare payments and allowances into the account of each individual providing a joined up system of payment monitoring.
3. It might be be possible to prevent/limit the purchase of alcohol or cigarettes (with the subsequent health benefits) with the use of the card but that would drastically lessen the tax take on those products, and might not go down too well with those who would prefer to spend every penny they receive on those things.
4. The debit card system reduces the cost of operating post offices on Dole day. (Bit of a stretch with that one but anyway!)
5. Social Welfare money is transmitted to the account of an individual allowing revenue/CAB to assess if a person is making money by another means
6. €1 Bn saved means €1 Bn less in tax we have to pay or €1 Bn more available to other budgets (Or to f%@k into the big black bank hole)

Costs:

1. For 500,000 people on the live register, if the cost per card was, I'm guessing €50 then that's €25million. (I imagine it's less but given our history with rolling anything out in this country!)
2. A bit of hassle


Anybody?

[sits down with a cup of coffee and awaits the arrival of the lynch mob;)]
Ime outside with the rope,enjoy your last cuppa.:mad:
 

Ultor

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Ime outside with the rope,enjoy your last cuppa.:mad:
I will surely!! It was getting lonely here for a while, at least now I'll have some company!!
 

jmcc

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42,817
And of course why not create a bank to run this operation. Also a biometric element would be a good inclusion for these cards - that would eliminate a significant amount of fraud.

Regards...jmcc
 

idle tim

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Handing out €205 + rent allowance to able bodied men is a joke.

We should halve that figure.
Should you not be out polishing your fire engine,doing a bit of ladder training or rescueing cats from trees,instead of wasting tax payers money on the station laptop.:cool:
 

antsrathcam

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Jul 29, 2010
Messages
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Rent allowance should be cut - but oh dear, that would not suit landlords (e.g. Frank 'Forty Flats' Fahey), as they would just have to cut their rents given the state of the property markets.

No far better to complete the FF cycle for landowners.

Just in case you have forgot what that is. They rezone your land, they let you build it with our tax revenue, and then they get tenants to pay the rent for you.
 

Ultor

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Mar 24, 2010
Messages
144
Should you not be out polishing your fire engine,doing a bit of ladder training or rescueing cats from trees,instead of wasting tax payers money on the station laptop.:cool:
It's ok, he finished his shift earlier, he's in the scratcher now, dreaming of big hoses and saving those cats!
 

charley

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Apr 3, 2009
Messages
1,247
Handing out €205 + rent allowance to able bodied men is a joke.

We should halve that figure.
At least have the cop-on to use the correct information

Jobseeker's Allowance » Jobseeker Supports » Schemes and Services » Department of Social Protection

Rent Supplement » Supplementary Welfare Allowance » Schemes and Services » Department of Social Protection

Spouting gibberish because your too lazy to look up the department's website is no excuse.

Less than 20% of unemployed receive rent supplement.
 

idle tim

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I will surely!! It was getting lonely here for a while, at least now I'll have some company!!
Seriously Ultor,may i bring you back a couple of decades to when a previous government of this septic isle decided to call a tax amnesty in the hope it might realise the sum of around 30million or less,the sum taken ended up in the region of 500million,money squirreled away in off shore accounts,under matresses,and under creeky floorboards????Do you think many welfare recipients took advantage of that amnesty???If its frauds you want to go after your looking in the wrong direction,,,,,:confused:
 

Anglo Celt

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I'm lucky enough to never have had to try and get social welfare payments, but from my experiences with friends, relatives and co-workers who are in receipt of benefits, we do need to re-examine the whole thing. I have relatives who've literally probably worked no more than a collective year in their entire lives. I have friends who take a "year out" on social welfare, and there are people whom I work with, on three days weeks who continue to send in their tickets every week for the extra social welfare even when they do work a full week. Some of them don't even want a full week back, even though it's there for them. They have "plans" for the days they're asked to come in. It's jst far to easy to get away with it.

Social welfare payments for people who need it, fine. But there should be a far more aggressive approach taken to get people back to work, or oin the very least, getting social welfare should mean that while you're on it sitting around at home, sending off the odd letter for a job just isn't an option. Being unemployed should almost be a job itself, insofar as you're out looking for work or gaining new skills in some kind of further education.

My wife is a Swede and having lived there for a few years, I think their model is something worth looking at. While you're in receipt of benefits there you have to meet with a member of the social welfare office twice a week, provide copies of letters (at least 20 a week) yuo've sent out to employers. After six months, you are given a choice between being put to work in public services (usually as an extra helper at kindergartens or in retirement homes - always under strict supervision) or you are put on a list whereby employers can bring you into their business for six months with the aim of getting full time employment if a position arises. In the very least you are still working and gaining experience, which looks far better on your cv than sitting around finishing CoD o your Xbox.

I'm sure someone will say that there is room for employers to abuse this system, but there doesn't seem to be any issue of that in Sweden. I don't know the ins and outs of it, but I'm sure there are provisions for dealing with all of this.
 
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onthefence

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Anglo Celt what a lot of rubbish you write

"Get them back to work" - There is no work out there
 

firefighter

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It's ok, he finished his shift earlier, he's in the scratcher now, dreaming of big hoses and saving those cats!
When your Garfield (not very good at catching birds) is stuck up a tree, try to hold in the tears and not to make a show of yourself.
 

Anglo Celt

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Anglo Celt what a lot of rubbish you write

"Get them back to work" - There is no work out there
How about starting you start your own business?

Is further education not an option?

What about the people working full weeks, still sending in receipts for three day weeks?
 

Clanrickard

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Anglo Celt what a lot of rubbish you write

"Get them back to work" - There is no work out there
Tis you writing the rubbish mate. He made a good point about the Swedish model and something like this should be introduced here. The problem is the Pity Industry and their left wing foot soldiers screech about any adjustments to the system.
 

eoghanacht

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Apr 18, 2006
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SW reform is needed no doubt but the way people go on here you would swear it's the alpha and omega of economic revival.

How come there are so many threads devoted to it?

How about SW reform as apart of an over all reform of the public sector?

How much could be saved by scrapping all the quango's, the senate, the presidency etc etc.

Then when you have no where else to cut then tackle SW.

All the focus is on those eeking out a living on SW payments whilst politicians continue to get paid obscene amounts of money.

A bit of perspective for gods sake
 


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