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Socialist paradise Venezuela can't even keep the lights on.

JimmyFoley

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Why is it doomed to failure?

In today's world a democratic socialist state would be a lightening rod for revolutionary movements throughout the planet. Far harder to isolate a socialist state today than it was in 1917.
But you already said that any state attempting it will fail on its own; why would any state try to emulate what you say would be an inevitable failure?
 


JimmyFoley

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Socialists have been critical of Stalinism since it was established (and outlined that it would ultimately fail) and have been critical of every other Stalinist state since (including the last remaining one in Cuba - which is now on the path to capitalist restoration).
Who is the person who has this incredible knowledge about an economy, any economy? This person who knows what price a can of coke should be set at... or that of a razor, aftershave, a battery, a cut of beef, a car, a jacket, a computer etc etc. Or who knows what salary a hairdresser, a dentist, an accountant, a landscape gardener, a masseuse, an architect etc should be paid. Or who knows at what rate a currency should trade.

Who is he? How do we test his credentials before we grant him this awesome power?
 

GDPR

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She gets to marry a man who can give her a better life. It’s the same as a man in 40s pulling up to a bar in a Ferrari, wearing Rolex and Armani and inviting a young beautiful woman to a fine restaurant and then back to his house in ballsbridge. A rich man , on average, has a nicer life than an average one, bigger home, cooler car , younger and prettier wife, better holidays etc . In Venezuela an Irishman on 60k is the equivalent of Ferrari guy.
In other words, you want to reduce the womenfolk of Venezuela to prostitution. This is your idea of "freedom." We saw the same thing happen to the women and children of Eastern Europe after they lost their protection in 1989.
 

GDPR

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So him and the guy that went before him are/were not socialists?
Has there ever been a country that has had a fully functioning socialist government that stood the test of time?
A government that you would be happy to call socialist.
There has never been a 100% Socialist state in the world, and there has never been a 100% Capitalist state in the world. These are rather two ends of a continuum. Sometimes the gauge is more towards Socialism and sometimes more towards Capitalism.
 

GDPR

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Who is the person who has this incredible knowledge about an economy, any economy? This person who knows what price a can of coke should be set at... or that of a razor, aftershave, a battery, a cut of beef, a car, a jacket, a computer etc etc. Or who knows what salary a hairdresser, a dentist, an accountant, a landscape gardener, a masseuse, an architect etc should be paid. Or who knows at what rate a currency should trade.

Who is he? How do we test his credentials before we grant him this awesome power?
In the age of supercomputers, that's really not difficult to do. The large corporations, such as Apple, now plan their demand as well as their supply. They actually use methods developed in the Soviet Union, but unfortunately the Soviet Union didn't have the computing power that now exists. Apple sets it own prices. It's prices have nothing to do with any free market. You could even say that Apple sets the price of its own shares on the stock exchange though stock buybacks.
 

GDPR

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Nope, they always backtrack and find a reason why it isn’t socialism (after it collapses ) . Within no time they will sprout that some other country that does not reward people making good decisions and/ or working hard will be successful.
Sounds very familiar....

 

GDPR

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Socialists have been critical of Stalinism since it was established (and outlined that it would ultimately fail) and have been critical of every other Stalinist state since (including the last remaining one in Cuba - which is now on the path to capitalist restoration).
Well, Trots have been critical of Really Existing Socialism - because only Stalinists ever managed to implement any kind of Socialist system. Trots stay pure to their dream - but they do it in the back rooms of pubs.
 

making waves

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Who is the person who has this incredible knowledge about an economy, any economy? This person who knows what price a can of coke should be set at... or that of a razor, aftershave, a battery, a cut of beef, a car, a jacket, a computer etc etc. Or who knows what salary a hairdresser, a dentist, an accountant, a landscape gardener, a masseuse, an architect etc should be paid. Or who knows at what rate a currency should trade.

Who is he? How do we test his credentials before we grant him this awesome power?
From each according to ability - to each according to need.

Well, Trots have been critical of Really Existing Socialism - because only Stalinists ever managed to implement any kind of Socialist system. Trots stay pure to their dream - but they do it in the back rooms of pubs.
The Stalinist variation -

From each according to ability - to each according to his work.
 

Telstar 62

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Margaret Thatcher on the pursuit of ‘equality’ in 1970's socialist Britain:

“Nations that have pursued 'equality', like the Iron Curtain countries,
I think have finished up with neither equality, nor liberty.”
 

the secretary

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Just because someone calls themselves a socialist - or someone else calls them a socialist - does not make it so.

People can have socialist views - but if they don't implement socialist policies when they get into a position of power their socialist views count for nought.

Chavez was certainly more to the left in outlook than Maduro - but he was a populist who used socialist rhetoric. When he got into power he used oil revenues to implement welfare programmes and infrastructural development - but he left the economy in the hands of the rich oligarchs.

Maduro has gone further - even conducted negotiations with the oligarchs under the eye of the IMF - the guy is no more a socialist than Brendan Howlin or Tony Blair.


The revolutionary government in Russia up to the mid-1920s established the foundations of a socialist society before it degenerated under Stalinism.

Socialism is international - a socialist state cannot be built or sustained in isolation - you cannot have democratic planning of a globalised economy on a localised basis. Without international socialism any socialist state will eventually be overthrown by an imperialist counter-revolution or degenerate (as was the case in Russia) - and every socialist worth their salt understands this.
So in other words the fight to establish a socialist world is a waste of time. Every time socialism failed it wasn't real socislism.
Lovely people those Russian revolutionaries.
 

GDPR

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Margaret Thatcher on the pursuit of ‘equality’ in 1970's socialist Britain:

“Nations that have pursued 'equality', like the Iron Curtain countries,
I think have finished up with neither equality, nor liberty.”
Thatcherite lemmings keep dreaming of the yacht and the pretty girls - when all that really awaits them is the bottom of the swamp.

 

GDPR

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So in other words the fight to establish a socialist world is a waste of time. Every time socialism failed it wasn't real socislism.
Lovely people those Russian revolutionaries.
Yes, and when Capitalist always fails - it's because it's not "Really Capitalism."

 

JimmyFoley

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In the age of supercomputers, that's really not difficult to do. The large corporations, such as Apple, now plan their demand as well as their supply. They actually use methods developed in the Soviet Union, but unfortunately the Soviet Union didn't have the computing power that now exists. Apple sets it own prices. It's prices have nothing to do with any free market. You could even say that Apple sets the price of its own shares on the stock exchange though stock buybacks.
Wtf?? :|

Apple, like any other company, tries to get as much money from customers for the products it sells them, as it can. But that price changes depending on the demand for the good...and Apple certainly doesn't set the price of the goods sold by its competitors!

I paid about £400 (punts) for a Sony DVD player about 18 years ago. You could buy a player of similar quality for about 1/10 of that price today. Why? Sony, like Apple, would love to be able to charge me €600 or whatever today, but they can't dictate the price because other companies came in for a piece of the action. And there's no civil servant who could have told them then or through the intervening years what the price *should* have been.
 

GDPR

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Wtf?? :|

Apple, like any other company, tries to get as much money from customers for the products it sells them, as it can. But that price changes depending on the demand for the good...and Apple certainly doesn't set the price of the goods sold by its competitors!

I paid about £400 (punts) for a Sony DVD player about 18 years ago. You could buy a player of similar quality for about 1/10 of that price today. Why? Sony, like Apple, would love to be able to charge me €600 or whatever today, but they can't dictate the price because other companies came in for a piece of the action. And there's no civil servant who could have told them then or through the intervening years what the price *should* have been.
Of course Apple can't charge a million dollars for an iphone. There's a limit to what people can or will pay. But Apple is deciding the price. It's not waiting for any free market to set the price. Same goes for Microsoft. Amazon is also centrally planning demand, supply and prices. Hayek & Co. had a point in the 20th century, when the computing power did not exist to implement central planning effectively. But their ideas are completely outmoded now.
 

JimmyFoley

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Of course Apple can't charge a million dollars for an iphone. There's a limit to what people can or will pay. But Apple is deciding the price. It's not waiting for any free market to set the price. Same goes for Microsoft. Amazon is also centrally planning demand, supply and prices. Hayek & Co. had a point in the 20th century, when the computing power did not exist to implement central planning effectively. But their ideas are completely outmoded now.
You're missing the point.

It doesn't take a genius or supercomputer to set the initial price of one good or a small number of related goods, and changing it as demand rises and falls; kids working at trading stalls have been doing that for centuries. What I'm talking about is the *fixing* by a civil servant of the prices of *all* goods and services. No one or no thing can make such judgements or predictions.

That's why a 'command economy' will always fail.
 


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