Socialist Party

Gladstone

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I'v heard these kids refuse participation in any government...ie are waiting for a majority or nothing.

Is this true and are the nuts?
 


GusherING

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Its easy to have standards when you have nothing to stand for.
 

Gladstone

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I'm lost.

How do they expect to make an impact without going into government?
 

cain1798

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Gladstone said:
I'v heard these kids refuse participation in any government...ie are waiting for a majority or nothing.

Is this true and are the nuts?
More nuts than you can possibly imagine and so closeminded they make the SWP look open.
 

Gladstone

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I looked at their site on the pensions, and it says "no cuts, no new tax on workers" so I thought? What print the money or something...no...predicably increase corpo tax to 50% :roll:...how original.
 

smiffy

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Gladstone said:
I'm lost.

How do they expect to make an impact without going into government?
It's because parliamentary policies is just one strand of an overall strategy of campaigning (including involvement in industrial disputes and local issues like the water charges) which will radicalise the industrial working classes and bring about a proletarian revolution.

Or something like that.

I'm just saying, is all ....
 

anylayman

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They don't want to participate in government because they feel being in government would comprimise their position. They'd have to start doing the government's bidding instead of furthering their own agenda etc.
 

Catalpa

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Uncle Joe will lose working class support now as he has openly sided with backing the so called Asylum Seekers.

That will certainly lose him votes.

Also while he has pointed out rightly that foreign companies are exploiting their own workers here that in and of itself will not gain him a single vote.

The more time he devotes to the perceived rights of foreigners the less he will have to focus on the rights of the Irish Working Class.
 

cain1798

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Gladstone said:
Social Democracy is not defunct Socialism is tho.
Social Democracy was defunct from the moment someone said: 'Hey, let's be social democrats.' It is based on the notion of staggering idiocy that capitalism can be managed and directed for the good of the people and putting the people before profit when capitalism as an economic system refuses such.

Since the abandonment of Socialism (Though in truth some were never more than rhetorically committed to it) by the main social democratic European parties and unions we have sen the steady erosion of the left position and the increasing dominance of neo-liberalism. The European Union, initially founded as a social democratic project to restrain capitalism has been an abject failure in that regard.

Social Democracy is the political philosophy of cowards, careerists and people who have no politics but want to 'help the poor people'. It is capitalism with a human face, nothing more, nothing less, and an ideology of defeatism.

And think little of him though I might Catalpa, Joe didn't get into politics to get votes from morons, he went in to pursue his political objectives and to do what he believed was right regardless of whether it was popular.
 

Gladstone

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I don't see anything wrong with it, a market-based system with essential services provided universally through the state with a social security system to prevent people falling into poverty.

It works VERY well in most countries and that can't be said of socialism at any time it has been tried.
 

Gladstone

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I'm actually getting pretty tired of hearing people on this site talk about socialism, lets face it, it does not work well for people, and neither SF nor Labour are going to nationalise industry and centrally plan the economy.
 

Catalpa

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cain1798 said:
Gladstone said:
Social Democracy is not defunct Socialism is tho.
Social Democracy was defunct from the moment someone said: 'Hey, let's be social democrats.' It is based on the notion of staggering idiocy that capitalism can be managed and directed for the good of the people and putting the people before profit when capitalism as an economic system refuses such.

Since the abandonment of Socialism (Though in truth some were never more than rhetorically committed to it) by the main social democratic European parties and unions we have sen the steady erosion of the left position and the increasing dominance of neo-liberalism. The European Union, initially founded as a social democratic project to restrain capitalism has been an abject failure in that regard.

Social Democracy is the political philosophy of cowards, careerists and people who have no politics but want to 'help the poor people'. It is capitalism with a human face, nothing more, nothing less, and an ideology of defeatism.

And think little of him though I might Catalpa, Joe didn't get into politics to get votes from morons, he went in to pursue his political objectives and to do what he believed was right regardless of whether it was popular.
The European Union, initially founded as a social democratic project to restrain capitalism has been an abject failure in that regard.

Do you mean the EU in its modern format or as originally founded back in 1957?

I think though the original EEC was founded on the back of other pan European projects like the Coal & Steel pact between West Germany and France + Italy?.

Also the Council of Europe in 1949 (Rep of Ireland original member).

These developments were twofold.

The primary one was to work towards the removal of political and military animosity between the European Powers that had triggered the World Wars.

Secondly and related to that to allow for economic Trade and expansion to be divorced from the previous policy that political/military control was necessary before a Nations goods could penetrate a new market.

Now in practise they could in fact do so even prior to WWI European Nations did large scale trade with each other.

However abroad it was another matter and it was this extra European rivalry for new markets and strategic areas of control and influence that worked their way back into European Politics.

Hence the EEC to allow for Economic and Political co oeration between the Combatants of the World Wars.

It might be better to see the EU project as originally started to channel Capitalism into a more pacific development than the first part of the Century had seen.

Social Democracy is the political philosophy of cowards, careerists and people who have no politics but want to 'help the poor people'. It is capitalism with a human face, nothing more, nothing less, and an ideology of defeatism.

Yes it is Capitalism with a Human Face all right. Reminds me of Dubceck's attempt to give Czechoslovakia ''Socialism with a Human Face''


And think little of him though I might Catalpa, Joe didn't get into politics to get votes from morons, he went in to pursue his political objectives and to do what he believed was right regardless of whether it was popular.[/quote]

Yeah Joe means well. In fact I have voted for him myself in times past but he lets the heart rule the head a bit too much at times.
 

Libero

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That's a fair attack on social democracy from Cain1798.

It just leaves me wondering what on earth he's doing in Sinn Féin.

SF do not propose a truly socialist political agenda. Marginal corporate tax hikes, setting up a social bank (like Labour proposed a few years back) and no more privatisation is just social democracy in green ink. The Socialist Party are not afraid to call for nationalisation, but Sinn Féin are - or maybe they just haven't gotten around to it yet.

Sinn Féin's 2002 manifesto piece "Building a Just Economy" is a case study in social democracy (as opposed to socialism). There is praise for the small businessman, for private research and development and for that awful cliché, the knowledge economy. There is nothing on withdrawing from the EU. And for all the wailing about the privatisations of recent years there are no proposals to reverse them.

They are just social democrats, and the second of those two words comes with a * after it.

It's nothing new to see people who should be socialists throwing their lot in with very dodgy and only vaguely socialist movements. Orwell called it power-worshipping - though it was easier to recognise when Stalin was around.
 

DOD

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Gladstone said:
I'v heard these kids refuse participation in any government...ie are waiting for a majority or nothing.

Is this true and are the nuts?
What is so nuts about this? Surely this is the way any party of the radical left should be. I have a lot of time for Joe higgins and the Socialist party. I think a hard left party does itself more good by being in a minortity position where it can get some bit done than throwing itself in with a government that will force it to compromise. Gregory tried this route, he realised later that he made a mistake.
 

mjcoughlan

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DOD said:
What is so nuts about this? Surely this is the way any party of the radical left should be. I have a lot of time for Joe higgins and the Socialist party. I think a hard left party does itself more good by being in a minortity position where it can get some bit done than throwing itself in with a government that will force it to compromise. Gregory tried this route, he realised later that he made a mistake.
Well there's only one answer then, isn't there?...

 

Catalpa

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mjcoughlan said:
DOD said:
What is so nuts about this? Surely this is the way any party of the radical left should be. I have a lot of time for Joe higgins and the Socialist party. I think a hard left party does itself more good by being in a minortity position where it can get some bit done than throwing itself in with a government that will force it to compromise. Gregory tried this route, he realised later that he made a mistake.
Well there's only one answer then, isn't there?...

Thats not the Joe Higgins I've seen on Election Posters!

One of them must be an imposter! :shock:
 

Batman

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VIVA ZAPITISTA!

VENCEREMOS
 

FutureTaoiseach

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Uncle Joe will lose working class support now as he has openly sided with backing the so called Asylum Seekers.

That will certainly lose him votes.

Also while he has pointed out rightly that foreign companies are exploiting their own workers here that in and of itself will not gain him a single vote.

The more time he devotes to the perceived rights of foreigners the less he will have to focus on the rights of the Irish Working Class.
I agree that we need to tackle the problem of legal migrant workers being abused by bad employers. If a slave pay regime is allowed to continue, Irish workers could lose their jobs to it.

However, I agree that the Socialist Party seems to regard asylum-seekers rights as being important than those of Irish people. The Irish Left in general are soft as a sponge on this issue and I hope that the people reject them in 2007.

I voted FG in the Euro and Local Elections without transferring to Labour. I did this because I felt that FF in local government were a major source of corruption, and in the knowledge that councils with largely the same members for decades can become extremely corrupt, as relationships are forged with developers if you know what I mean.

However, national elections are different. Now FG has come out as a liberal party on immigration, backing Labour's whining and moaning. Previously I had considered voting FG in the hope that they would act as a moderating influence in a Rainbow government on the "let them all in" tendencies of the Labour Party. That confidence has now disappeared.

I will therefore be voting for the current lot again. Sorry FG and Labour (not).
 


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