Solutions for Ireland

grafter1

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
829
While there has been a hell of a lot of confusion of late i haven't heard any suggested solutions to our problems so here goes mine.

We should accept the IMF money to recap our banks and we should aim to balance our tax take and outgoings by 2014.

If our total debt at that point is 200Bn we should ask the European Central Bank for an interest free 50 year loan whereby we agree to repay 4Bn per year from 2015 to 2064.

If our incomings and outgoings were balanced it would work for us. Hopefully inflation along the way would reduce the real burden of the 4bn. I believe an interest free 50 year loan would be in Europes as well as Irelands best interests

I believe its worthy of discussion. Any thoughts?
 


Watcher2

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
34,586
Interest free loan from the ECB might be an option, and not just for us. It struck me last night watching Prime Time and the figures being thrown about, that we simply can not afford to fix the problem when repayments are incurred. I never countenanced an interest free loan but thought the ECB should just bring palet loads of money and reduce the amount of debt outsnding to outside institutions by all "at risk" members of the euro. The amount of the reduction should be so that the amount left over would be sustainable.

It is not just an Irish problem now because Spain, barring a mirracle, will go the way of Irealnd and Greece (and soon Portugal).

Print the money, pay off the danger debt and lets move on.

We may have a little inflationary difficulty but surely this would be manageable, at least more manageable than the problem we have now.

Plus, wouldn't it devalue the euro making exports more desirable thereby increasing growth?

I'm no expert but thought this might be a way out.
 

fluvius

Active member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
124
Wouldn't many/all the Euro countries demand the same treatment for their sovereign debt?
 

Pauli

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Messages
1,181
Start with proscribing Fianna Fail. Membership of this organisation should, of itself, carry a mandatory 5 year custodial sentence. Then start addressing the economic problems.
 

GreenIsGood

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2010
Messages
1,536
Here's GiG's programme:

  • tourism is worth 6Bn per year. double this by introducing the strongest landscape, heritage protection measures in the world
  • aggressively force down costs in energy, waste, insurance, professional fees
  • default on bank debt. if that means we exit euro, so be it.
  • adopt cheap clean nuclear power
  • eradicate FF mafia from public life
  • reorganise agriculture by cutting farm subsidies - allowing efficient profitable enterprises to grow
  • massive-scale deciduous woodland creation programme on marginal agricultural land
  • cut corporation tax to 5%
 

cocopoppyhead

Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Messages
52
Here's GiG's programme:

  • tourism is worth 6Bn per year. double this by introducing the strongest landscape, heritage protection measures in the world
  • aggressively force down costs in energy, waste, insurance, professional fees
  • default on bank debt. if that means we exit euro, so be it.
  • adopt cheap clean nuclear power
  • eradicate FF mafia from public life
  • reorganise agriculture by cutting farm subsidies - allowing efficient profitable enterprises to grow
  • massive-scale deciduous woodland creation programme on marginal agricultural land
  • cut corporation tax to 5%
Dont agree with the Nucleur point, but ill add to and expand on some of your points.

  • Tourism: we need to make our Visa's easier to obtain, have a look at the tourists in this country, 95% are from the USA, European mainland, UK and a few scattered Australians... There are no Indians, no Chinese, no Japanese, Russian, Brazilian and so on and so forth. I spoke to one of the head guys in Failte Ireland the other day, and he said this is due to the border in the north, our government was never brave enough to open Tourism options for fear of people jumping the border.. But, with the Olympics the UK will be relaxing their restrictions, so we have an opportunity to relax ours for good.
  • Spirit of Ireland, this should be used instead of Nucleur power, its clean and has enormous potential.. basically building 3-4 large resovoirs off the west coast which would be used in conjunction with mass wind turbine farms to produce tonnes of Energy. Our national grid is a storage grid these days, so excess energy can be stored within it without being lost.
  • Default on the debt, Well atleast the banking debt, we cannot afford to take on all this burden, we would continue to sink or at best swim against the current and never get anywhere.
  • Change the Bankrupcy laws, embrace people that fail and allow them to try again, we learn a lot from failure, best to put that experience to good use.
  • Reform our politics totally, get rid of all these phony bickering political parties, they are no help at all, and as you seen recently they have caused hell for this island. We need to be able to encourage the brightest people to run for Taoiseach, and we need the people to have more power. Cowen & Bertie for example have ignored everything we have said, we need to be able to step in and make changes if that is the concencus nationwide.
  • Reclaim our natural recources, our politicians shamefully gave away some of these reserves, but we have a minimum of 420bn worth of untapped oil and gas (off the west coast, off dalkey, and under cavan, longford, roscommon). We need to take back what is rightfully ours, or atleast take a massive stake in these companies that we are allowing to drill here... We are losing billions and billions of revenue here, we are missing out on an energy boom, and we are missing a means to wipe out our debt quickly. We need these politicians out, and we need to take back these fields
  • I know the IDA is working on this, but we need to bring in Chinese, Japanese, Brazilian companies to Ireland, and from indeed more countries too, these are huge economies, and we were all to reliant on one economy in the past. We all knew if something happened the USA we would be hit bad as we were massively exposed to them. We were the only country in the EU that did most of our trade with non EU countries, namely the USA.
  • Finally, leave the Euro.. If we are not going to do most of our trade with the Euro, we must leave it. We trade 90% with regions other than the Eurozone [mostly UK & USA]. The Euro has been a major reason for this debt pile we have now, and for how we ran out of control, or rather our banks were allowed to run out of control. But now that we have fallen from grace we have no means to recover. Compare us with Sweden in 1993, they were able to lower their Economy by 30%, attract investment immediatly and recover within 4 years or there abouts. We have not been able to remedy ourselves as we ceased control in 2002 following on from the Maastrick decision.
 

Donegal Paddy

New member
Joined
Nov 22, 2010
Messages
2
Business incentive

I want to concentrate on the little things that will make a difference...small practical ideas that if implemented will help turn us around.
I am one of those small businessmen who lost everything over the past 3 years. I am now unemployed. Unfortunately for me, my entrepreneurial spirit lives on, and so I continually seek alternative business ideas.
The key to getting off the ground for many of us is financial assistance... in short, grant aid.
I now presume that grants as we knew them will be severely limited or non existant from here on.
I want to propose an alternative.
Allow businesses to apply for grant aid. Agree eligibility and an amount. Then set up a system whereby the amount of the agreed financial aid is refunded through the VAT system. If I am eligible for a grant of €50k...I am allowed to retain this amount of VAT...not reclaim...retain VAT due to Revenue.
This means the state does not hand over start up money and it takes the gamble out of it for the state. The business only gets its 'grant' if it performs. Admittedly this means the business must fund 100% of the start up but once they know the amount comes back in VAT they should be able to borrow.
This should also simplify the entire process of grant assistance which has been so cumbersome that it has been off-putting. I have been offered several feasability grants in my time and never got them because the paperwork was so detailed in making the claim.
A simple idea that could really work.
We need to incentivise our entrepreneurs. It is the small operator that will make the difference...the guy who employs 2 or 3 people.
Lets have your micro ideas...forget the macro stuff...that is just letting off steam!
 

MauriceColgan

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
7,664
Website
www.irelandtoo.com
Dont agree with the Nucleur point, but ill add to and expand on some of your points.

  • Tourism: we need to make our Visa's easier to obtain, have a look at the tourists in this country, 95% are from the USA, European mainland, UK and a few scattered Australians... There are no Indians, no Chinese, no Japanese, Russian, Brazilian and so on and so forth. I spoke to one of the head guys in Failte Ireland the other day, and he said this is due to the border in the north, our government was never brave enough to open Tourism options for fear of people jumping the border.. But, with the Olympics the UK will be relaxing their restrictions, so we have an opportunity to relax ours for good.
  • Spirit of Ireland, this should be used instead of Nucleur power, its clean and has enormous potential.. basically building 3-4 large resovoirs off the west coast which would be used in conjunction with mass wind turbine farms to produce tonnes of Energy. Our national grid is a storage grid these days, so excess energy can be stored within it without being lost.
  • Default on the debt, Well atleast the banking debt, we cannot afford to take on all this burden, we would continue to sink or at best swim against the current and never get anywhere.
  • Change the Bankrupcy laws, embrace people that fail and allow them to try again, we learn a lot from failure, best to put that experience to good use.
  • Reform our politics totally, get rid of all these phony bickering political parties, they are no help at all, and as you seen recently they have caused hell for this island. We need to be able to encourage the brightest people to run for Taoiseach, and we need the people to have more power. Cowen & Bertie for example have ignored everything we have said, we need to be able to step in and make changes if that is the concencus nationwide.
  • Reclaim our natural recources, our politicians shamefully gave away some of these reserves, but we have a minimum of 420bn worth of untapped oil and gas (off the west coast, off dalkey, and under cavan, longford, roscommon). We need to take back what is rightfully ours, or atleast take a massive stake in these companies that we are allowing to drill here... We are losing billions and billions of revenue here, we are missing out on an energy boom, and we are missing a means to wipe out our debt quickly. We need these politicians out, and we need to take back these fields
  • I know the IDA is working on this, but we need to bring in Chinese, Japanese, Brazilian companies to Ireland, and from indeed more countries too, these are huge economies, and we were all to reliant on one economy in the past. We all knew if something happened the USA we would be hit bad as we were massively exposed to them. We were the only country in the EU that did most of our trade with non EU countries, namely the USA.
  • Finally, leave the Euro.. If we are not going to do most of our trade with the Euro, we must leave it. We trade 90% with regions other than the Eurozone [mostly UK & USA]. The Euro has been a major reason for this debt pile we have now, and for how we ran out of control, or rather our banks were allowed to run out of control. But now that we have fallen from grace we have no means to recover. Compare us with Sweden in 1993, they were able to lower their Economy by 30%, attract investment immediatly and recover within 4 years or there abouts. We have not been able to remedy ourselves as we ceased control in 2002 following on from the Maastrick decision.
I'm afraid you are wrong about the Japanese, coach loads arrived at Newgrange earlier this year. Also many others such as Indians etc were seen and heard on the Cliffs of Moher and elsewhere.
 

Goban Saor

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 5, 2010
Messages
925
To repay those loans we must increase tourism numbers substantially and we have all the very beautiful and interesting attractions at hand already.

See: Discovering Ireland, thread.
Genius. If only we could find the increase tourism button.

Or we could remove the vote from old people. Then we wouldnt be in this mess.
 

roc_

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,461
I really find it hard to understand threads like this on calls for 'solutions'.

When people hardly understand the problems. Or, even have spent any time identifying and delineating problems, and breaking them down further.

Even if they had properly identified and articulated a strand of the problem, and agreed that it was indeed a problem, then the solutions proposed are only hypothesised to address the problem until evidence is gathered as to their likely effectiveness.

And often, mooted solutions can exacerbate other related problems or indeed give rise to new ones. But most of the time, they are only solutions to imagined or secondary problems.

It is all in the same vein as Bertie Ahern's busy-ness and 'a lot done more to do' ethos.

Better if we sat back and carefully thought about and framed and articulated our problems imo. This would be 90% of the solution.

Fat chance of any careful consideration though in this country. Or, bringing to the surface that which is unpalatable or which might paint ourselves in a bad light. In fact, there is a major strand of our problems in itself.

We should rename ourselves the 'band-aid republic'. But even these band-aids fall off at the slightest provocation.

Ridiculous thread. Let the general public frame the problems. That is what they are most qualified to do. It is also traditionally been the nature of public discourse in properly democratic soceties.
 

cocopoppyhead

Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Messages
52
I'm afraid you are wrong about the Japanese, coach loads arrived at Newgrange earlier this year. Also many others such as Indians etc were seen and heard on the Cliffs of Moher and elsewhere.
im not wrong, There are ofcourse Tourists from Japan, China etc, but very few in comparison to other nations, and few in comparison to those here on working visas.. The indian coaches tour operators and the Russian equivelent gave up on Ireland a few years ago as it was too much hassle applying for Visa's..

Here is the breakdown from Bord Failte (2008):

Britain 3,579,000
Mainland Europe 2,561,000
North America 953,000
Rest of World 343,000 (incl NZ, Australia, Japan, Africa, other Asian)

So, Lets not get hung up on Japan or any singular country, Those figures show that there is a massive market there for overseas visitors, India & China for example were not mentioned in the report(other than a small listing as Asia), but we all know there are a lot of people living there..
 

cocopoppyhead

Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Messages
52
Genius. If only we could find the increase tourism button.
there is such a thing, like i said, i was speaking to a senior member of Bord Failte last week, and he agreed with the points i made, he also added the only thing that is holding bord failte back from bringing in more tourists is the governments inaction and lack of desire to do anything supportive.
 

MauriceColgan

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
7,664
Website
www.irelandtoo.com
im not wrong, There are ofcourse Tourists from Japan, China etc, but very few in comparison to other nations, and few in comparison to those here on working visas.. The indian coaches tour operators and the Russian equivelent gave up on Ireland a few years ago as it was too much hassle applying for Visa's..

Here is the breakdown from Bord Failte (2008):

Britain 3,579,000
Mainland Europe 2,561,000
North America 953,000
Rest of World 343,000 (incl NZ, Australia, Japan, Africa, other Asian)

So, Lets not get hung up on Japan or any singular country, Those figures show that there is a massive market there for overseas visitors, India & China for example were not mentioned in the report(other than a small listing as Asia), but we all know there are a lot of people living there..

2008 Figures.

In those two years my wife and I were amazed at the numbers on the cliffs of Moher, up in Clifden and Sligo, Donegal etc.

I guess you are right about the visas though.

Yes we have a great opportunity to increase Chinese etc tourists. Ireland should open tourist offices in the far east where countries are booming.

Our hotels have never been so accommodating price-wise as they are now.
 

grafter1

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
829
I really find it hard to understand threads like this on calls for 'solutions'.

When people hardly understand the problems. Or, even have spent any time identifying and delineating problems, and breaking them down further.

Even if they had properly identified and articulated a strand of the problem, and agreed that it was indeed a problem, then the solutions proposed are only hypothesised to address the problem until evidence is gathered as to their likely effectiveness.

And often, mooted solutions can exacerbate other related problems or indeed give rise to new ones. But most of the time, they are only solutions to imagined or secondary problems.

It is all in the same vein as Bertie Ahern's busy-ness and 'a lot done more to do' ethos.

Better if we sat back and carefully thought about and framed and articulated our problems imo. This would be 90% of the solution.

Fat chance of any careful consideration though in this country. Or, bringing to the surface that which is unpalatable or which might paint ourselves in a bad light. In fact, there is a major strand of our problems in itself.

We should rename ourselves the 'band-aid republic'. But even these band-aids fall off at the slightest provocation.

Ridiculous thread. Let the general public frame the problems. That is what they are most qualified to do. It is also traditionally been the nature of public discourse in properly democratic soceties.
Interesting post.

I wouldnt agree with you for the simple reason is that you are trying to turn our problems/solutions into a form of decision making process. Ultimately making decisions rely on past experience and weighing up options.

I believe we are in unchartered territory and it will ultimately come down to a judgement call - i.e. there will be ultimately no past experience/no frameworks/models from which we can call.

I stand by my OP in terms of my suggestion of a 50 year loan. I'm comfortable i understand what the issues have been and what they continue to be.

A very thought provoking post roc
 

SeanieFitz

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
12,019
i know that the corrib gas field is v emotive subject and i will be honest and say that i previously used to look on the protesters as loonies however i am starting to come around a little bit
FF politicans have taken to mentioning that the UK accepted an IMF bailout in 1976 and that their economy recovered, my understanding is that the Labour government of the late 70's had done a deal with US oil companies to search for oil in the north sea (something like the deal done by ray burke) with v little benefits to the UK exchequer.
oil companies spent nearly 3 years drilling in the wild seas and were about to give up when they struck oil on xmas day 1978. however the tories came to power in 1979, tore up agreement with oil companies and kept oil profits for itself. that was what caused the uk economy to recover! billions of pounds from oil
what i am asking is that can that be done here?
 

cocopoppyhead

Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Messages
52
2008 Figures.

In those two years my wife and I were amazed at the numbers on the cliffs of Moher, up in Clifden and Sligo, Donegal etc.

I guess you are right about the visas though.

Yes we have a great opportunity to increase Chinese etc tourists. Ireland should open tourist offices in the far east where countries are booming.

Our hotels have never been so accommodating price-wise as they are now.
I dont have the latest figures, but they wouldnt be so far off...
We also have more 5 star hotels per capita than anywhere else in Europe, if not the world, we are over stocked with hotels, and we need to fill them up..

I have more figures in my bag, might get them out later.. but we can massively increase tourism numbers, 9-10million was our greatest figure, and this was a massive increase from the 90's, 12million was considered a conservative fugure by bord failte if they could get their way with the gov.. they were looking to maybe double the number.

now lets take a look at how much income the 2008 figures brought in...

6.3 billion, Tourism ireland is looking to grow by 3% this year...
But, if we were to double this to 12.6billion, then why dont we?

Anyway, lets not get side tracked on tourism, there are many avenues for growth.. And reclaiming our oil fields has to be hugely important, the tender process for a few of them is upcoming in 2011...
 

cocopoppyhead

Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Messages
52
i know that the corrib gas field is v emotive subject and i will be honest and say that i previously used to look on the protesters as loonies however i am starting to come around a little bit
FF politicans have taken to mentioning that the UK accepted an IMF bailout in 1976 and that their economy recovered, my understanding is that the Labour government of the late 70's had done a deal with US oil companies to search for oil in the north sea (something like the deal done by ray burke) with v little benefits to the UK exchequer.
oil companies spent nearly 3 years drilling in the wild seas and were about to give up when they struck oil on xmas day 1978. however the tories came to power in 1979, tore up agreement with oil companies and kept oil profits for itself. that was what caused the uk economy to recover! billions of pounds from oil
what i am asking is that can that be done here?
exactly what we need to do, we have an estimated minimum of 450bn worth of oil and gas, and not just from the Corrib field, but the Rockall basin, the midlands, Dalkey and so forth... we could recover in no time with this oil/gas which is ours.. and no politician had a right to take it away from us.
 

Illustro

Active member
Joined
Jun 27, 2009
Messages
252
Increasing revenue in certain areas solves practically nothing. Our govt. are about to sign us up to perpetual, unpayable debt. The same as has afflicted African nations. I would echo the point that unfortunately folks don't know what the alpha problem is.

Here's my solution. It is pretty much the only real solution.

http://www.politics.ie/economy/143855-release-economic-enslavement.html
 

Themuzzer

Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2010
Messages
7
exactly what we need to do, we have an estimated minimum of 450bn worth of oil and gas, and not just from the Corrib field, but the Rockall basin, the midlands, Dalkey and so forth... we could recover in no time with this oil/gas which is ours.. and no politician had a right to take it away from us.
+1

Demand the Government resign! Demand that Ireland leave the Euro and now the EU! Demand that our Natural Resources be immediately Nationalised!

EFTA (European Free Trade Association) Countries have the right to trade/travel and exchange capital throughout all of Europe in the EU & NON-EU states... Natural Resources are owned by the state and we'd have complete sovereignty from Brussels.
 


New Threads

Most Replies

Top