Some people are so ignorant! (about energy)

EoinMn

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Re: Some people are so ignorant!

Munion said:
Installing insulation to your attic will SAVE you €XXX per year! (Please note there may be some benefit to the environment but nothing compared to the benefits IN YOUR WALLET!)

Appealling to peoples natural greed is the best way to get things across.
But even that doesn't work..
Everyone knows that energy saving bulbs and attic insulation pay for themselves and still there is a reluctance to invest.

Its a bit like pensions. People know they should get one as soon as they start work in their 20's, but often don't bother until they are in their 30's.
 


JCSkinner

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Re: Some people are so ignorant!

Wolverine2 said:
JCSkinner said:
Wolverine2 said:
JCSkinner said:
Wolverine2 said:
No, I don't mean rude.

In a nutshell, I work in the renewable energy sector (supplying and installing solar hot water systems), and I'm becoming more and more amazed as time goes on at the sheer ignorance of many people toward energy costs.

I've been to houses with rubbish insulation, places where even rudimentary improvements (like a bit of putty around the windows) would make a huge difference, places where they might as well be burning money, and yet so many of these people are highly suspicious of ANY home improvements that would cut down on their bills. Even with oil so high and electricity going up, there is such a marked reluctance to do ANYTHING that might improve matters. I got an earful last week when I showed a customer a wood pellet stove I have in my showroom - remarking on the fact that it was a) cheap to run and b) environmentally friendly, I was suddenly treated to a lecture on the environmental movement and how "people like you" want to stop me working on my land (I think he meant cutting hedgerows).

Blow me. The grant scheme is not enough - efforts to inform people about energy efficiency need to be stepped up, big time. The Change campaign and Power of One have yet to impact on some people, and even oil at E150 a barrel isn't having a big impact.

Anyone got any other suggestions?
Perhaps people suspect that you have a vested interest when you suggest they should spend more money on repairs? Especially when you start showing them 'deals' in your showroom?
Perhaps they are also still smarting from how mercenary and outrageously expensive it became in recent years to pay a tradesman to do absolutely anything?
I don't supply insulation so I have no "vested interest" in suggesting that they improve their insulation. And I don't show them "deals" - I show them solar panels if they want to see it. You would prefer that I show them nothing, and have no showroom?

At any rate your argument doesn't explain why people are reluctant in general to consider energy saving measures - they should become more price and quality conscious, not reject the idea outright, which is what I find many people do.

On costs, you're right - costs are high, due in no small part to high costs of doing business and competition constrictions higher up the supply chain. The guys on the ground are competing strongly, but many suppliers further up the chain are not. Add to that 21% VAT, higher fuel costs and rates, and you have a high cost economy. I'm actually cheaper than the competition across town, but I would like to be cheaper still. But when you're a sole trader and you're asked to fork out 3.5K for insurance, as I was this week, the costs add up. And they have to be passed on. If there was more competition between insurance companies...
Aw diddums. You show people your wares, they don't buy them and you're moaning that it's their fault and they're wrong?
Maybe you're wrong. Maybe you're a crap salesman. Maybe you need to make a better effort to explain the benefits of what you provide. Maybe your prices are a total rip-off.
Or maybe you should read my posts before replying?

I said I was cheaper than my competitors across town. I also said my main source of amazement was the ignorance about any form of energy saving, and the reulctance to do anything about it - even things that cost feck all, like draught excluding.

I give my customers some free advice because it costs me nothing and at least leaves them with the feeling they've got some service. What''s your problem with that?
I don't have a problem. You have the problem. People are not buying your products/services as you would like them to. Being cheapest in town doesn't mean your prices aren't a rip-off. The whole town might have rip-off prices. It certainly wouldn't be the first sector or town in Ireland to suck consumers dry out of retailer greed. If you really want sales, keep cutting prices by ten per cent weekly until you reach the tipping point where people buy from you as you would like them to.
 

Bobert

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Don't suppose you know about storage heaters, Wolverine?
 

Wolverine2

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Re: Some people are so ignorant!

JCSkinner said:
Wolverine2 said:
JCSkinner said:
Wolverine2 said:
JCSkinner said:
[quote="Wolverine2":3udv30bm]No, I don't mean rude.

In a nutshell, I work in the renewable energy sector (supplying and installing solar hot water systems), and I'm becoming more and more amazed as time goes on at the sheer ignorance of many people toward energy costs.

I've been to houses with rubbish insulation, places where even rudimentary improvements (like a bit of putty around the windows) would make a huge difference, places where they might as well be burning money, and yet so many of these people are highly suspicious of ANY home improvements that would cut down on their bills. Even with oil so high and electricity going up, there is such a marked reluctance to do ANYTHING that might improve matters. I got an earful last week when I showed a customer a wood pellet stove I have in my showroom - remarking on the fact that it was a) cheap to run and b) environmentally friendly, I was suddenly treated to a lecture on the environmental movement and how "people like you" want to stop me working on my land (I think he meant cutting hedgerows).

Blow me. The grant scheme is not enough - efforts to inform people about energy efficiency need to be stepped up, big time. The Change campaign and Power of One have yet to impact on some people, and even oil at E150 a barrel isn't having a big impact.

Anyone got any other suggestions?
Perhaps people suspect that you have a vested interest when you suggest they should spend more money on repairs? Especially when you start showing them 'deals' in your showroom?
Perhaps they are also still smarting from how mercenary and outrageously expensive it became in recent years to pay a tradesman to do absolutely anything?
I don't supply insulation so I have no "vested interest" in suggesting that they improve their insulation. And I don't show them "deals" - I show them solar panels if they want to see it. You would prefer that I show them nothing, and have no showroom?

At any rate your argument doesn't explain why people are reluctant in general to consider energy saving measures - they should become more price and quality conscious, not reject the idea outright, which is what I find many people do.

On costs, you're right - costs are high, due in no small part to high costs of doing business and competition constrictions higher up the supply chain. The guys on the ground are competing strongly, but many suppliers further up the chain are not. Add to that 21% VAT, higher fuel costs and rates, and you have a high cost economy. I'm actually cheaper than the competition across town, but I would like to be cheaper still. But when you're a sole trader and you're asked to fork out 3.5K for insurance, as I was this week, the costs add up. And they have to be passed on. If there was more competition between insurance companies...
Aw diddums. You show people your wares, they don't buy them and you're moaning that it's their fault and they're wrong?
Maybe you're wrong. Maybe you're a crap salesman. Maybe you need to make a better effort to explain the benefits of what you provide. Maybe your prices are a total rip-off.
Or maybe you should read my posts before replying?

I said I was cheaper than my competitors across town. I also said my main source of amazement was the ignorance about any form of energy saving, and the reulctance to do anything about it - even things that cost feck all, like draught excluding.

I give my customers some free advice because it costs me nothing and at least leaves them with the feeling they've got some service. What''s your problem with that?
I don't have a problem. You have the problem. People are not buying your products/services as you would like them to. Being cheapest in town doesn't mean your prices aren't a rip-off. The whole town might have rip-off prices. It certainly wouldn't be the first sector or town in Ireland to suck consumers dry out of retailer greed. If you really want sales, keep cutting prices by ten per cent weekly until you reach the tipping point where people buy from you as you would like them to.[/quote:3udv30bm]

It's actually my experience that people do want the absolute cheapest and don't really worry too much about hidden costs, so perhaps you have a point (although not the way you expect).

My margins are fairly small, so what I should do is chuck out flow rate monitors on my systems (would save E60 straight away) and use E rated pumps, not A rated at present. That would save another 100-150 Euro. Then I suppose I should get rid of air separators (another E80, but hey, what's the harm in having gurgling noises in your system) I'll also use a cheaper controller with only two temp sensors, it will mean that the customer will be using his/her boiler/immersion unnecessarily since they won't be able to tell how hot their tank is, but if it's cheaper, what harm?

I'll finish off that by not using armaflex insulation and using non solar tanks (a lot cheaper, but it might cause the system to overheat regularly). I'll use copper tanks also, instead of stainless steel tanks (loses the heat quicker, can't be pressurised, shorter lifespan, but what harm). To top that off I'll use plastic piping and a smaller expansion vessel.

The end result is that I'll be able to sell a solar system a lot cheaper, even if the customer will end up paying in different ways for the cheaper system. That should save me at least 600-800 Euro, and I can pass on those savings, and the customer can pay them back themselves in terms of more oil/gas/electricity/maintainence and general hassle.

Perhaps I will do that. Trevor Sargent did it, and here is what happened:

A nice cheap job

That's how being uninformed, and having your sole concern being end costs, can backfire. People are shopping around but haven't taken quality as well as price into consideration.

If you want a proper discussion about prices in the sector let's discuss them. But since you have no idea what my prices are (or of anyone else it seems) it is fair to say that you don't know what you're talking about.
 

JCSkinner

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I didn't claim to know the prices of your industry.
What I do recognise is someone refusing to take responsibility for their own concerns, however.
People won't buy your stuff. According to you, that's their fault. According to me, it's yours.
 

Wolverine2

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Bobert said:
Don't suppose you know about storage heaters, Wolverine?

Only that they are quite expensive in general, but if you are on nightsaver they can be cheaper. Like any heating system, there's different levels of efficiency across the system.
 

Wolverine2

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JCSkinner said:
I didn't claim to know the prices of your industry.
What I do recognise is someone refusing to take responsibility for their own concerns, however.
People won't buy your stuff. According to you, that's their fault. According to me, it's yours.

Jaysus.

I'll say it again - It is not the unwillingness to purchase solar systems that amazes me (for some people, like elderly people living alone, they're not the best option) but the unwillingness to consider anything - even draught excluding.

OK?
 

Bobert

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Wolverine2 said:
Bobert said:
Don't suppose you know about storage heaters, Wolverine?

Only that they are quite expensive in general, but if you are on nightsaver they can be cheaper. Like any heating system, there's different levels of efficiency across the system.

No idea how to set them then? Bah!
 

JCSkinner

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Wolverine2 said:
JCSkinner said:
I didn't claim to know the prices of your industry.
What I do recognise is someone refusing to take responsibility for their own concerns, however.
People won't buy your stuff. According to you, that's their fault. According to me, it's yours.

Jaysus.

I'll say it again - It is not the unwillingness to purchase solar systems that amazes me (for some people, like elderly people living alone, they're not the best option) but the unwillingness to consider anything - even draught excluding.

OK?
I believe you're being disingenuous.
I've rarely been in anyone's accommodation during winter and not seen some form of draught exclusion.
People may well be buying the items - just not from you.
You're whinging about not having sales, and trying to tart that up as a public reluctance to take measures to reduce their energy bills. Do you know how ridiculous your argument sounds?
 

Bobert

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Wolverine2 said:
Well have they basic controls or thermostatic controls?

Digital...
 

solair

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People are generally quite clueless about energy conservation, I would agree wholeheartedly on that point. It's not just that they think it's 'snakeoil', it's that they simply do not have any clue what it's all about.

Many of the changes that people could make in their homes wouldn't cost anything and do not have a downward impact on their quality of life i.e. you're not talking about hairshirt stuff that means they have to be miserly with the heat.

I think there's a general tendency in some sections of the community to think that it's "namby pamby greeny pinko lefty" stuff that you wouldn't want to be involved in and the next step towards eating tofu !

Sadly, that's simply how it's been spun in the media and how it's been protrayed generally.
 

Wolverine2

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I've rarely been in anyone's accommodation during winter and not seen some form of draught exclusion.
People may well be buying the items - just not from you.
I have, and that's the whole point.

Anyhow - what good is a solar panel for stopping draughts?

I don't supply insulation, or draught excluders.

I supply Solar panels, at competitive prices. I don't bother too much with other stuff because I'd prefer to be good at one trade than average at several. But all these issues are interlinked. Hence it surprises me in these days of high energy costs to see such simple things ignored. I've been into houses where the boiler is going full blast and there's a half inch gap under the front door, and people are complaining about the cold.

That is what surprises me.

I think there's a general tendency in some sections of the community to think that it's "namby pamby greeny pinko lefty" stuff that you wouldn't want to be involved in and the next step towards eating tofu !
Perhaps, but at the end of the day we're talking about money, and saving it. If the benefits were vague and undefined it would be one thing, but in the era of $150 a barrel oil, it is surprising to see the general benefits not being realised.
 

Bakunin

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JCSkinner said:
I didn't claim to know the prices of your industry.
What I do recognise is someone refusing to take responsibility for their own concerns, however.
People won't buy your stuff. According to you, that's their fault. According to me, it's yours.
I didn't read the OP that way. But he is absolutely right in what he is saying, even if you, JCSkinner, could disprove it in your own case - do you understand U values, thermal bridging, passive solar, geothermal ? ? ?

It's no surprise to anyone to hear that as a nation of houseowners we are conservative. Otherwise there would be no such thing as oil-fired central heating.

The original point of the original post stands - there are swathes of people who know not even the most basic of energy-saving. Otherwise nobody would have downlighters, and everybody would have CFL's.

And by the way, you started the diddums bullshite by going off on one about the cost of tradesmen. Irrelevant to the original post, you petulant tosser.
 

JCSkinner

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the impossibilist said:
JCSkinner said:
I didn't claim to know the prices of your industry.
What I do recognise is someone refusing to take responsibility for their own concerns, however.
People won't buy your stuff. According to you, that's their fault. According to me, it's yours.
I didn't read the OP that way. But he is absolutely right in what he is saying, even if you, JCSkinner, could disprove it in your own case - do you understand U values, thermal bridging, passive solar, geothermal ? ? ?

It's no surprise to anyone to hear that as a nation of houseowners we are conservative. Otherwise there would be no such thing as oil-fired central heating.

The original point of the original post stands - there are swathes of people who know not even the most basic of energy-saving. Otherwise nobody would have downlighters, and everybody would have CFL's.

And by the way, you started the diddums bullshite by going off on one about the cost of tradesmen. Irrelevant to the original post, you petulant tosser.
Except it wasn't.
His 'evidence' that Irish people know nothing about energy conservation was that they don't buy his panels. He has since added additional evidence that people he visits do not have draught excluders.
Frankly, if that evidence impresses you, you're the tosser.
 

sparkey321

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While I agree with you completely on the need for people to have a good look at their houses regarding energy efficiency I also understand why people are equating green with rip off.

Any "green" product has historically had a huge and in most cases unjustified price premium. (organic chicken, organic bread etc)
Green bins. I know that the company that takes away my bin put by washed and separated recyclables waste in with the general waste. I see them do it every week. Yet they refused to pick up my neighbours green bags because his 4 year old put grass in the bag (He picked up an armful of grass clippings and put them int eh bag after it had been put out for collection. No one noticed until after they refused to take it away). He was threatened with a fine...

Even business. I know a number of guys who own body shops. Recently they have had to move from the old paint to water based paints. It cost them money but they did it. Then they were told they would all be inspected and licensed. OK but when they asked for a list of what they would be inspected on or what they had to get ready they were given no answer. They all got calls from a company claiming to be recognised by the Department and they were running a one night training course to get them ready for these inspections and telling them what would be inspected. Cost €450. They paid up and went to the hotel where the course was being held and got little or no information. Then they were offered a "inspection preparation" folder that was supposed to give them step to step guidelines on the legislation, what the requirements were and how to meet them. Another €250. Not a group to be caught out twice they paid for one folder between them just to see it was any good. It was junk, unreadable legalise with no practical advice or recommendations. It actually included some advice aimed at the car manufactures that has no relevance to them.

Now they are being inspected with no advice no guidelines nothing. Every company is telling them they need to have this and that in place and selling them overpriced kit that they do not need. Environmental companies are now coming on and charging them a fortune to set up contracts to remove their waste and provide them with letters and documents. One guy is still using the same company he used before but now he has to hang signs over the barrels, has a letter and a copy of their waste licence and they doubled what they were charging him.

They are being ripped off and its all being blamed on environmental legislation. All they needed was a simple easy to follow booklet explaining their obligations and giving them useful practical advice. Instead the Department told them nothing and the got screwed by private so called environmental companies.

They are pis*ed and I don't blame them. They blame the Department and I don't blame them and they curse the environmental lobby and I understand why.
 

Bakunin

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Except it wasn't.
His 'evidence' that Irish people know nothing about energy conservation was that they don't buy his panels. He has since added additional evidence that people he visits do not have draught excluders.
Frankly, if that evidence impresses you, you're the tosser.[/quote]



Show me the quotes to back that up. In the meantime, just in case your misrepresentation is not deliberate, here's some help with comprehension for you. Just this once.

OP in italics -

I'm becoming more and more amazed as time goes on at the sheer ignorance of many people toward energy costs.

Energy costs, not solar panels. The Big Picture. And he's right.


these people are highly suspicious of ANY home improvements that would cut down on their bills. Even with oil so high and electricity going up, there is such a marked reluctance to do ANYTHING that might improve matters.


Anything
, not just solar panels. Again, for economic reasons or whatever, people aren't engaging with any of the technologies. Neither are you, probably.

I showed a customer a wood pellet stove I have in my showroom - remarking on the fact that it was a) cheap to run and b) environmentally friendly,

Now Skinner, if you had an informed point of view, you might have asked the OP a question about the current state of play with regard to the supply of pellets. That you didn't tells it's own story.

Cop on to yourself.
 

eyeSpy

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JCSkinner said:
the impossibilist said:
JCSkinner said:
I didn't claim to know the prices of your industry.
What I do recognise is someone refusing to take responsibility for their own concerns, however.
People won't buy your stuff. According to you, that's their fault. According to me, it's yours.
I didn't read the OP that way. But he is absolutely right in what he is saying, even if you, JCSkinner, could disprove it in your own case - do you understand U values, thermal bridging, passive solar, geothermal ? ? ?

It's no surprise to anyone to hear that as a nation of houseowners we are conservative. Otherwise there would be no such thing as oil-fired central heating.

The original point of the original post stands - there are swathes of people who know not even the most basic of energy-saving. Otherwise nobody would have downlighters, and everybody would have CFL's.

And by the way, you started the diddums bullshite by going off on one about the cost of tradesmen. Irrelevant to the original post, you petulant tosser.
Except it wasn't.
His 'evidence' that Irish people know nothing about energy conservation was that they don't buy his panels. He has since added additional evidence that people he visits do not have draught excluders.
Frankly, if that evidence impresses you, you're the tosser.
i'm loathe to waste a few seconds on this but you're so tiring JCSkinner. any posts i've seen you make since joining this site only a few weeks back miss the point and turn it around to some spurious arguement with someone. just because you dont understand something doesnt mean it's evil or people being sheep or people ripping someone off. you live for an arguement not a debate. your avatar says it all. 2 fingers to everyone.
 

Bakunin

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i'm loathe to waste a few seconds on this but you're so tiring JCSkinner. any posts i've seen you make since joining this site only a few weeks back miss the point and turn it around to some spurious arguement with someone. just because you dont understand something doesnt mean it's evil or people being sheep or people ripping someone off. you live for an arguement not a debate. your avatar says it all. 2 fingers to everyone.[/quote]


Look closely, it's only one finger, until he masters the concept of ''two''.

Possibly that's his typing finger - slow, but keeps pace with his thought processes I suppose.
 


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