Some people are so ignorant! (about energy)

EoinMn

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sparkey321 said:
They blame the Department and I don't blame them and they curse the environmental lobby and I understand why.
I see where you are coming from sparkey, but in fairness I doubt many in the environmental lobby (which is a far from a homogeneous group) set out to create red-tape.
And I suspect your colleagues know that deep down. But environmentalists, like the EU, are a handy scape-goat.
 


eyeSpy

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Bobert said:
Wolverine2 said:
Well have they basic controls or thermostatic controls?

Digital...
electricity should never be used for heating anything but since you dont have a choice i'd get the make and model number from the name plate on one of the units and google for instruction information.
this is a very common problem. people move into houses and arent told how to operate controls by previous owners, estate agents or builders.
you could be wasting a lot of money if they arent timed right.
 

eyeSpy

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sparkey321 said:
While I agree with you completely on the need for people to have a good look at their houses regarding energy efficiency I also understand why people are equating green with rip off.

Any "green" product has historically had a huge and in most cases unjustified price premium. (organic chicken, organic bread etc)
Green bins. I know that the company that takes away my bin put by washed and separated recyclables waste in with the general waste. I see them do it every week. Yet they refused to pick up my neighbours green bags because his 4 year old put grass in the bag (He picked up an armful of grass clippings and put them int eh bag after it had been put out for collection. No one noticed until after they refused to take it away). He was threatened with a fine...

Even business. I know a number of guys who own body shops. Recently they have had to move from the old paint to water based paints. It cost them money but they did it. Then they were told they would all be inspected and licensed. OK but when they asked for a list of what they would be inspected on or what they had to get ready they were given no answer. They all got calls from a company claiming to be recognised by the Department and they were running a one night training course to get them ready for these inspections and telling them what would be inspected. Cost €450. They paid up and went to the hotel where the course was being held and got little or no information. Then they were offered a "inspection preparation" folder that was supposed to give them step to step guidelines on the legislation, what the requirements were and how to meet them. Another €250. Not a group to be caught out twice they paid for one folder between them just to see it was any good. It was junk, unreadable legalise with no practical advice or recommendations. It actually included some advice aimed at the car manufactures that has no relevance to them.

Now they are being inspected with no advice no guidelines nothing. Every company is telling them they need to have this and that in place and selling them overpriced kit that they do not need. Environmental companies are now coming on and charging them a fortune to set up contracts to remove their waste and provide them with letters and documents. One guy is still using the same company he used before but now he has to hang signs over the barrels, has a letter and a copy of their waste licence and they doubled what they were charging him.

They are being ripped off and its all being blamed on environmental legislation. All they needed was a simple easy to follow booklet explaining their obligations and giving them useful practical advice. Instead the Department told them nothing and the got screwed by private so called environmental companies.

They are pis*ed and I don't blame them. They blame the Department and I don't blame them and they curse the environmental lobby and I understand why.
unfortunately all areas of business are open to shark practice.
but the people who are in it for the best intentions are usualy the ones that have been around long before there was money in it.
try and find them.
it is a real concern though that these people will be considered akin to second hand car salesmen, cowboy builders, estate agents or homeopaths if this continues.
buyer beware.
 

Niamhsfriend

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Some people are ignorant, undoubtly, but many are confused.

I have been recycling paper and glass for over two decades, long before the little green bins arrived on the doorstep. I compost as much kitchen waste as I can, never used plastic bags even to the point of being escorted off the premises of some well known supermarket chains because I wouldn't put a packet of polos in to a full size plastic bag, and so on.....I'm not saying I am a saint, but I have been *aware* for a long time, and have tried to do my bit, however small. And that was long before any legislation, or publicity, or a Green party seat in the Dail.

However, I do less now than I ever did, and that's because I am bombarded by comflicting evidence, to the point where I don't know what is best. Hybrid cars sound great, and then I am told they cost more energy to recycle, biofuels are going to save our fossil fuel dependant civilisation but then, whoops, they are causing famine and food shortages, animals reared for meat endure horrendous and undefendable conditions, but switching to vegetarianism means most of what is readily available on supermarket shelves is genetically modified, and what about those air miles..........

I have been in the power-of-one website and it was the most condescending, offputting experience. If one more agency advises me that I could cut my heating bills significantly by fitting a lagging jacket, I will not be responsible for the consequences. Maybe someone, somewhere, doesn't have one fitted, but I would have expected power-of-one to at least ask me if I had done so before they tut-tutted at me.

Personally, I would be interested in learning about solar panels and wood pellet burning stoves (although I am quite sure I would have to drive to get to the showrooms, and probably pay a toll/parking along the way) and there is no excuse for the rudness the first poster seems to have encountered, but peoples frustration, that's very understandable!!
 

JCSkinner

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Aw. I hurt the babies' feelings. Sawwy.
So where's the fcuking evidence to back up absolutely ANY of the claims the OP makes, then? Eh? Because all I've heard from him is his moaning about not selling enough kit, and some twaddle about his pals' gaffs not having draught excluders.
Where's the supporting evidence?
 

de knowledge economy

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I have never seen even a rudimentary evaluation of these domestic energy saving projects using capital cost, risk, cost of capital, positive cash flow, replacement, maintenance,depreciation etc. I suspect it would not be that great.I stand to be corrected.That is assuming borrowing the money would be possible in the present credit climate.
I also suspect people dislike insulating the attic because the rock wool stuff is such awful stuff.Encase it in plastic in matress
type modules and it would be much more customer friendly.
Why is the grant available only to projects carried out by designated companies, anti competitive surely. An inspection of work carried out would suffice, just like was done for the grants for water supply in the past.
What is the point of installing wood chip furnaces when the price of the wood chips track the price of oil.
 

Bakunin

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JCSkinner said:
Aw. I hurt the babies' feelings. Sawwy.
So where's the fcuking evidence to back up absolutely ANY of the claims the OP makes, then? Eh? Because all I've heard from him is his moaning about not selling enough kit, and some twaddle about his pals' gaffs not having draught excluders.
Where's the supporting evidence?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

You're the only one throwing his toys out of the pram, you clown.

Anyway, his evidence is anecdotal, the very same as your own. I'll confirm his point of view by saying that it tallies with my own. And I know, because I'm a qualified electrician who's interested in the issues, and I know from chatting to friends and acquaintances how little is understood. You of course, confirmed it a different way by having nothing whatsoever constructive to say about any of the issues I raised.

So we just take it in the spirit in which it was offered - ie a friendly chat. Not something for you to shite in your nappy about, you rude pig.
 

wombat

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I just costed a project to repair insulation on steam lines at work - fairly minor work, mostly parts which were originally left bare because they were hard to work on. The payback time is measured in months, not years. We insulated the attic at home years ago - its an old terrace house so it was the biggest heat loss source, I also turn off the heat in rooms that aren't generally used - I'm not Green, just cheap. I would be wary of some of the more elaborate options because of capital cost/payback period. There is no doubt that the biggest bang for your buck will come from conservation rather than alternative energy systems.
 

Bakunin

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de knowledge economy said:
I have never seen even a rudimentary evaluation of these domestic energy saving projects using capital cost, risk, cost of capital, positive cash flow, replacement, maintenance,depreciation etc. I suspect it would not be that great.I stand to be corrected.That is assuming borrowing the money would be possible in the present credit climate.
de knowledge economy said:
Perhaps JCSkinner can enlighten us as to the depreciation treatment for draught excluders ? Twenty years, straight-line perhaps ?

Seriously, you're making a valid point and I accept that. I suppose that the formal tools of financial analysis you mention are not stacking up too well for OFCH either, and I think that situation is likely to get worse rather than better. And there's no ''upside'' to not doing the basics either. I would have thought lagging the attic, CFL and so on would be desirable, an revenue neutral at worst ?

And to come at it from a slightly more idealistic point of view - my interest is being stoked as much by sustainability, as by the hard economics. But they are important.

What I'm finding is that the multitude of systems around solar, geo, etc etc - do take a lot of time to absorb. And you still have to design for your particular circumstance. I think that's a huge barrier for a lot of people.


I also suspect people dislike insulating the attic because the rock wool stuff is such awful stuff.


There are alternatives, such as sheeps-wool. Though the financier in you will balk !
 

JCSkinner

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Mr Impossible. You languish under a number of delusions, but frankly only one of them interests me enough to address it.
I haven't presented an argument or evidence to support one. I've only asked for the OP to present evidence to support his own argument that Irish people are ignorant about energy use.
That flies in the face of government awareness campaigns, media commentary, the response to spiralling fuel costs and common sense.
His evidence, anecdotal as you call it, doesn't even support his assertion. His pals don't have draught excluders when he visits. So what? That means the country is ignorant about energy usage? That's beyond ridiculous.
And I won't be bullied out of asking for actual evidence to support his assertions. Because otherwise this isn't any sort of debate. It's whinging and shite-talking by someone who's annoyed people won't buy more of his solar panels.
 

Bakunin

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JCSkinner said:
I've only asked for the OP to present evidence to support his own argument that Irish people are ignorant about energy use.

Well if he had known you were going to be such a pissarse about it, he may have coerced them into sworn statements, that he could have scanned and put up here for your edification.

But you were such an ignoramus from the get-go, that nobody could really believe that you're interested in the issue at all. You're just a crank.

His evidence, anecdotal as you call it, doesn't even support his assertion. His pals don't have draught excluders when he visits. So what? That means the country is ignorant about energy usage? That's beyond ridiculous.

Many many people will identify with that anecdotal evidence. Which is a start to a civilised conversation about the issue. Exchange of views, by interested parties. Nothing at stake, nobody going to jail.

And nobody is saying that people don't know that the price of oil is going up. What is being said is that -

1. People are not conversant with the available technologies of solar, pellet, geo-, etc etc

2. Many people are not even doing the basic stuff - ie CFL's, attic insulation. Don't say that that is not true, because it is. I know it is, because I still do some electrical work, very occasionally. And I didn't take pictures to satisfy you, but there it is.

3. People are resistant to try things because they don't understand them, because they don't try them, and on ad infinitum.

And I won't be bullied out of asking for actual evidence to support his assertions. Because otherwise this isn't any sort of debate. It's whinging and shite-talking by someone who's annoyed people won't buy more of his solar panels.


Well, provide some evidence of your own that he's wrong. I've given you the chance already. Give us your opinion about geo-thermal, versus solar water ? ? ?

Or if that's too taxing for you - alternative insulation products to Rockwool ? Or what are the equivalent wattages of a CFL v incandescent lamp ? What about the power consumption of downlighters, and the effect of stepping down to 12 volts ? Cos you do know what a Kilowatt hour is, don't you ?

So prove to us that we are an exceptionally conversant nation in general, on this topic...

If the OP is a vested interest (I am not) that is good to know. Doesn't make his assertion false though.
 

Bakunin

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JCSkinner said:
Lack of evidence makes his assertion false, or to be charitable merely unproven, until he can demonstrate otherwise, with actual evidence.
You've just proven that the assertion is perfectly valid. You've said it's ''beyond ridiculous'' that in general, people aren't aware of the issues, but you can't even talk about it at the most basic level - I've asked you twice, but I won't bother again.

Just go away.

''Lack of evidence makes his assertion false''
WTF kind of pseudo- logic cobblers is that ?
 

JCSkinner

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His assertion lacks any demonstrable evidence. Therefore it is at best unproven. To my mind it remains false, as three pages in, no one has been able to provide any.
Yes, you have asked me about wood pellets and so on twice. I haven't bothered to answer primarily because whether I can speak to the topic or not still doesn't prove anything in relation to the OP's assertion that the Irish public are ignorant about energy usage. All it demonstrates is what I as an individual know. And that's frankly not representative of the public as a whole, due to the nature of my work.
 

Milano

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Wolverine2 said:
No, I don't mean rude.

In a nutshell, I work in the renewable energy sector (supplying and installing solar hot water systems), and I'm becoming more and more amazed as time goes on at the sheer ignorance of many people toward energy costs.

I've been to houses with rubbish insulation, places where even rudimentary improvements (like a bit of putty around the windows) would make a huge difference, places where they might as well be burning money, and yet so many of these people are highly suspicious of ANY home improvements that would cut down on their bills. Even with oil so high and electricity going up, there is such a marked reluctance to do ANYTHING that might improve matters. I got an earful last week when I showed a customer a wood pellet stove I have in my showroom - remarking on the fact that it was a) cheap to run and b) environmentally friendly, I was suddenly treated to a lecture on the environmental movement and how "people like you" want to stop me working on my land (I think he meant cutting hedgerows).

Blow me. The grant scheme is not enough - efforts to inform people about energy efficiency need to be stepped up, big time. The Change campaign and Power of One have yet to impact on some people, and even oil at E150 a barrel isn't having



a big impact.

Anyone got any other suggestions?

<MOD>Altered the title to make it a little clearer as to what the thread is about<MOD>
Cut out the shite man ! Undergroung, like the Rabbit! and then like the Rabbit spend time on??? What ? how are you?
 

Bakunin

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His assertion lacks any demonstrable evidence. Therefore it is at best unproven. To my mind it remains false, as four pages in, no one has been able to provide any.

He offered testimony, as someone in the industry. I corroborated it as someone interested, having done some research, and with some technical background as a qualified electrician. The experience we have both had, is that levels of understanding are in general way too low - and in some cases non-existent.

Yes, you have asked me about wood pellets and so on twice. I haven't bothered to answer primarily because whether I can speak to the topic or not still doesn't prove anything in relation to the OP's assertion that the Irish public are ignorant about energy usage. All it demonstrates is what I as an individual know.THIS IS ALL A LOAD OF WAFFLING BALLSOLOGY And that's frankly not representative of the public as a whole, due to the nature of my work. WALTER MITTY :shock:

So one way or another, you're not in a position to question peoples motives or comprehension of the matter are you ? And your only motive in doing so was to be an aggressive smartarse.
 

JCSkinner

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It's an open board. Dave kindly permits anyone who signs up to question anything else anyone rights.
So I'm in the perfect position to question the OP's assertion, especially since there's not a bugger here who's provided a shred of evidence so far that didn't involve anecdotes about draught excluders.
 

Bakunin

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JCSkinner said:
It's an open board. Dave kindly permits anyone who signs up to question anything else anyone rights.
So I'm in the perfect position to question the OP's assertion, especially since there's not a bugger here who's provided a shred of evidence so far that didn't involve anecdotes about draught excluders.
You're embarrassing yourself now. And Dave can't save you.

I mean how stupid is this ? You know nothing about the topic, you don't care about it, you're just obstructing an interesting discussion when nobody required or asked for your adjudication on it in the first place. And that's your usual modus operandi, by some accounts. Get a life.

Just stay away if you have nothing to offer. We can make up our own minds about the OP's motives and input. No-one gives a fukk about what you think of it.
 

Bakunin

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JCSkinner said:
How do you know what I know about the topic? I refused to answer you on that point because it is irrelevant to the OP's assertion.
Wrong. It is central to the OP's assertion. You had a chance to disprove him (and to disarm me) by actually showing that you know something about it. You blobbed it on some ridiculous pretext about the nature of your work. You're not the last monk on Skellig are you ?

The OP gets to see more of the general public in this context than you do. And as it's a subject of interest to me, I immediately identified with his comments as ringing true. And why that can't be good enough for a know-nothing like you is a mystery to me.

For someone so rigorous on the rules of evidence, you have some neck to attribute negative motives to other posters so easily.

Listen, you're not smart enough for the game you want to play.
 


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