Some people are so ignorant! (about energy)

John_C

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I think that if we removed the phrase '(about energy)' from the title, this thread would make a lot more sense.
 


Bakunin

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JCSkinner said:
You're still suffering the category error of mistaking anecdote for evidence and hearsay for fact.
But JC - you and I both know the context in which all of this arises.

A poster comes on, makes an observation. it's part impression, part fact, part anecdote, etc And all of that is perfectly acceptable. And a perfectly reasonable base from which to start a discussion. This is not a trial. Those of us genuinely interested can make up our own minds, weigh the info, the context, the need for discretion on a public forum, judge motives, the level of proof we require.

My experiences are concrete and real, and I can analyse what's going on, because I can gauge my level of understanding against someone else's. And I'm talking about acquaintances and friends of all ages, let's say 15 to 85ish. Both sexes. Occupations including Engineers :shock: , tradesmen, apprentices, lawyers, accountants.

So I trust my own judgement, and it resonates with what a lot of posters on this thread are saying.
 

JCSkinner

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You may trust your own judgement. But to everyone else, you're just an anonymous randomer on the internet with God knows what prejudices, axes to grind, vested interests or mental psychoses.
In order therefore for the rest of us to trust you, you need to support your case with factual evidence.
Come on, is this really a difficult concept for you to grasp?
 

Bakunin

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JCSkinner said:
You may trust your own judgement. But to everyone else, you're just an anonymous randomer on the internet with God knows what prejudices, axes to grind, vested interests or mental psychoses.
In order therefore for the rest of us to trust you, you need to support your case with factual evidence.
Come on, is this really a difficult concept for you to grasp?
JC, There are many routes to trust. People will judge my prejudices, axes, interests and psychoses based on the totality of my posts. They will manifest themselves in time.

That is equally true of you, and people have expressed their opinions on that issue. One of which is that you take pleasure from haranguing and badgering people.

Who are you to invigilate over every discussion ?

I do not need documented factual evidence to make a statement that a reasonable person could see is an individual's take on an issue. The accumulation of individual experiences is perfectly interesting in it's own right. And challengeable.

I made no claim to having access to such research. As though official sources are not problematic in their own right, re framing of questions and so on.

So people who want to have a discussion with me are free to do so. You are not obliged to do so. And have no mandate to intervene as some legal eagle ''Saviour of Dave''. Or guardian of the forensic standards of the site.

Those threads will go better without you.
 

JCSkinner

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This isn't rocket science. You can prove the assertion or you can't.
So far, four pages later, no one has proved the original assertion. Therefore, until someone comes up with some factual evidence, it must be assumed that the assertion isn't true, no matter what your personal anecdotal opinion is.
Now, on another thread, trying to be smart, you refused to accept anecdote as supporting evidence and challenged me to produce some factual analysis to support what I was saying. It took me five minutes to do so.
I'm still waiting a day on for you to reciprocate in kind.
Because if you don't, or can't, then it can only be assumed that you're the worst kind of hypocrite, the one who demands significantly higher standards of the world but fails to live up to even basic standards oneself.
 

CookieMonster

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This is like, OMG... SUCH a weird thread.
 

Bakunin

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Now, on another thread, trying to be smart, you refused to accept anecdote as supporting evidence


That is a downright lie. Here is the piece -


JC - those posts are indicative of the trend, which has been analysed elsewhere by a number of state agencies.

I - I'm interested. MY sense is that proper research and reporting of Irish people's views on this matter, is being widely suppressd by officialdom.

Anyway, you should have cited those publications, in preference to the indications of this forum. By your own standards.

There's no refusal to accept anything there. In fact on the next post I said - I form that impression from some posts on here, as much as anything. So how can you claim that I'm rejecting it as supporting evidence, when I'm saying that the very same posts form part of my impression.

You're a cynical liar.

and challenged me to produce some factual analysis

Because I'm interested, that I asked you politely to link the research for me - or verbatim, I actually said

Genuinely would like to see the official data though - can you link, please ?


You're a bitter little man. It's going to be a pleasure.
 

Seos

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CookieMonster said:
This is like, OMG... SUCH a weird thread.
You're going to need to back that up with evidence!
 

Wolverine2

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CookieMonster said:
This is like, OMG... SUCH a weird thread.
Yes, like Frankenstein it seems to have developed a life of it's own.

With regard to evidence of poor insulation/lack of awareness of insulation I'd suggest the sei website or even google. I didn't provide "evidence" of what I had seen because I'm not in the habit of taking photographs of customer's (not pals) attics when I'm planning for a panel installation. However there's plenty of evidence of poor housing insulation standards in Ireland, check www.sei.ie or even google it and see what comes up. I'd recommend SEI's 2008 report Energy in the Residential Sector as a decent starting point. Some of the better quotes from it:

Code:
Comparing energy usage per dwelling in 2006, Ireland was 27% above the average for the UK and in 2005, 31% above the EU-15 average and 36% above the EU-27 average.
Just under 50% of the housing stock were built before the first thermal energy insulation requirements came formally into effect in 1979.
Comparing electricity consumption per dwelling (climate corrected), in 2006 Ireland’s electricity usage was 20% above the average for the UK, and in 2005, 17% above the average for the EU-15 and 29% above the average for the EU-27.
They are stunning statistics, and from my experience I'd believe it. And it's not too hard to believe that many people are ignorant of the issue - after all, we have been clamping down on smoking for decades now with awareness campaigns, bans on advertising and so fourth and still people are sparking up.

Dr. Jerry O'Connor, head of airtricity, said to Pat Kenny this year that "We have the worst housing stock in Europe. It looks nice but it's jerry built" There's a report on his comments on ireland.com, along with some other choice quotes like this one:

According to Sustainable Energy Ireland (SEI), most houses built before about 1980 have no wall insulation. Many houses built during the 1980s have some wall insulation. Houses built since the 1991 Building Regulations came into effect are required to have wall insulation. Eddie O'Connor's "Jerry-built" description starts to ring true as it's clear that there are hundreds and thousands of homes with virtually no insulation.
link

Anyhow enough of that. If someone is seriously looking for evidence they can look it up easily enough.

So does anyone have any suggestions of how to get our energy use down in a proper manner? What is the role of government, of citizens, of the media?

Perhaps Jerry O'Connor has a point - we should have a national awards scheme for energy saving, with categories for best retrofit, best new build, most innovative energy saving solution, most cost effective energy saving initiative and whatnot. It's all about awareness, and certainly there is plenty of work out there to be done - a national campaign to improve insulation standards could provide a boost to the moribound construction sector.

What do people think?
 

Wolverine2

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Major changes to the grant scheme for renewable energy technologies today.

Minister Ryan has basically announced that no new houses will receive grant aid for a renewable energy system, only houses over 1 year old (as the new planning regs require a renewable energy system in the house or else no planning permission will be given).

Biomass systems (i.e. Wood Pellet/Chip) will also see a small reduction in grant levels.

Bit sudden, although they have at least managed to keep the scheme available for retrofits (which are more expensive).
 

valamhic

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No, I don't mean rude.

In a nutshell, I work in the renewable energy sector (supplying and installing solar hot water systems), and I'm becoming more and more amazed as time goes on at the sheer ignorance of many people toward energy costs.

I've been to houses with rubbish insulation, places where even rudimentary improvements (like a bit of putty around the windows) would make a huge difference, places where they might as well be burning money, and yet so many of these people are highly suspicious of ANY home improvements that would cut down on their bills. Even with oil so high and electricity going up, there is such a marked reluctance to do ANYTHING that might improve matters. I got an earful last week when I showed a customer a wood pellet stove I have in my showroom - remarking on the fact that it was a) cheap to run and b) environmentally friendly, I was suddenly treated to a lecture on the environmental movement and how "people like you" want to stop me working on my land (I think he meant cutting hedgerows).

Blow me. The grant scheme is not enough - efforts to inform people about energy efficiency need to be stepped up, big time. The Change campaign and Power of One have yet to impact on some people, and even oil at E150 a barrel isn't having a big impact.

Anyone got any other suggestions?

<MOD>Altered the title to make it a little clearer as to what the thread is about<MOD>
You are right, most people do not understand energy. The really understand it you need to read and study the science and while most people want to advise me, and claim to be experts, none are willing to take a course on the subject. Its arrogance. I believe part of the reason is because you cannot actually see energy. It's intangible mostly. There are a few facts.

1) There is no such thing as an object , just a collection of atoms or sub atomic particles.

2) Energy cannot be created, only converted from one form to another.

3) Energy can dissipate from ordered to disordered and the other way round.

4) Matter and energy is ultimately the same thing (E=mc2) but not in the ordinary day to day experience.

5) Wood, oil coal turf and gas are all forms of stored energy. Hydro too is stored energy if there is water built up behind a dam.#

6) Solar and wind are intermittent energy which is totally dependent on nature for supply.

7) Small scale roof panels appear to work reasonably well to heat water to wash etc. Its volume is too low to generate useful mains energy withour using a lot of land.

8) Elevtric cars simple shift the co2 from the car to the power station and are no better than a bicycle most of the time. They use more fossil fuel than a diesel car.

9) Bio fuel from land uses more diesel to produce than it gives back.

10) the volume of other Bio fuel is too low for any pracitcal use.

11) Wind turbines use fossil fuel , particularly in cold weather and wind there is a limit on how much wind can be allowed into the system, Excess must be curtailed and paid for under Priority dispatch.

12) the present poly phase electricity system is the brain child of Nichola Tesla.

13) heat can only move for hot to cold (never the other way round) seems obvious but its is actually a central pillar of physics

14) You are right about isolation. any people will completely insulate their homes to a high standard and then leave a window open.
this allows the outside cold air circulate with the inside warm air and freeze the place, they are only heating the moon.
15) The chimney is a major source of heat loss. But useful for Santa.
16) the best way to insulate and protect homes is to intercept flue gasses leaving the chimney for transmission into the home and to provide heat exchangers so you could have warm fresh air. You dont have to breath stale air in order to say warm.

17) But our government ignores this and thinks they can provide clean electrical power form large wind turbines. This is an expensive myth
 

southwestkerry

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oooohhhhh what a drag.. energy power insulation the cost of home heating and on and on and on till the end off days.
SwK
 

Nemesiscorporation

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No, I don't mean rude.

In a nutshell, I work in the renewable energy sector (supplying and installing solar hot water systems), and I'm becoming more and more amazed as time goes on at the sheer ignorance of many people toward energy costs.

I've been to houses with rubbish insulation, places where even rudimentary improvements (like a bit of putty around the windows) would make a huge difference, places where they might as well be burning money, and yet so many of these people are highly suspicious of ANY home improvements that would cut down on their bills. Even with oil so high and electricity going up, there is such a marked reluctance to do ANYTHING that might improve matters. I got an earful last week when I showed a customer a wood pellet stove I have in my showroom - remarking on the fact that it was a) cheap to run and b) environmentally friendly, I was suddenly treated to a lecture on the environmental movement and how "people like you" want to stop me working on my land (I think he meant cutting hedgerows).

Blow me. The grant scheme is not enough - efforts to inform people about energy efficiency need to be stepped up, big time. The Change campaign and Power of One have yet to impact on some people, and even oil at E150 a barrel isn't having a big impact.

Anyone got any other suggestions?

<MOD>Altered the title to make it a little clearer as to what the thread is about<MOD>
Can you please privmail me details about your wood pellet heaters and solar panels?

I am buying a house in Ireland in the new year.
 


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