some senior civil servants are reluctant to propose legislation because they can't get their way 100%

lostexpectation

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Pat Leahy IT: some senior civil servants are reluctant to propose legislation because they can't get their way 100%

Pat Leahy writes in the Irish Times
some senior civil servants are reluctant to propose legislation because they are afraid that the Dáil will amend it beyond recognition
surely this should be on top of every news bulletin if true, civil servants not proposing legislation because they don't have the abilty to push through their department's bills without amendments.

Are some civil servants on legislative strike? go slow?
 
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TedHankey

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Pat Leahy writes in the Irish Times

surely this should be on top of every news bulletin if true, civil servants not proposing legislation because they don't have the abilty to push through their department's bills without amendments.

Are some civil servants on legislative strike? go slow?
The permanent government have a deeply ingrained sense of entitlement to do as they please, with as little as possible input from public representatives. It's the culture of the public service, that's what they're used to. I bet they'd love to have FF baaack to it's "traditional size".
 

sic transit

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Pat Leahy writes in the Irish Times

surely this should be on top of every news bulletin if true, civil servants not proposing legislation because they don't have the abilty to push through their department's bills without amendments.

Are some civil servants on legislative strike? go slow?
That does not say they object to amendments, but to amendments beyond recognition. Government can't protect bills so others can do as they wish with it. Civil servants are the ones who have to implement legislation anyway so no surprise to see them being involved.
 

Old Mr Grouser

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Pat Leahy writes in the Irish Times
some senior civil servants are reluctant to propose legislation because they are afraid that the Dáil will amend it beyond recognition
...
Given the power of the Culchie Faction it does seems prudent.

For example -

For Danny, he is resolute that there is no problem in mixing his local and national political aims, saying “every problem originates somewhere and like, many of the local issues that I tried to raise here in the Dáil, they are Kerry issues in my instance, but they’re actually affecting other counties as well”.

One such problem is that of social isolation in rural counties.

What comes to mind here is his proposal to introduce a “special permit” that would allow drivers travelling alone on minor roads to drink two pints and receive no penalties from the Gardaí, and certainly this is something Danny broaches before I even have the chance to.

He compares the application for the permit to that of applying for a gun and states that it would apply to certain link roads: “

And it’s not that I’m saying people should drive when they’re drunk. I don’t say that, but there’s a big difference in having two pints and having 10 or 12 pints and killing someone.”

Dissecting the Policies of the Healy-Rae Hive Mind – The University Times

 

brughahaha

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Although not a SF supporter , for me one of the joys of them forming a government would be the seismic horror of our senior public service having to deal with ministers who don't know the rules of the game ..........

It's stated "Yes Minister" was essentially documentary dressed up as comedy , and our CS is modelled on the British one , so I'd imagine we have a lot of Sir Humphries who ensure real change never ever happens
 

lostexpectation

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That does not say they object to amendments, but to amendments beyond recognition. Government can't protect bills so others can do as they wish with it. Civil servants are the ones who have to implement legislation anyway so no surprise to see them being involved.
the previous position was that they could get their way 100% of the time, (as long as government parties backed them) now they might be outvoted on amendments they are reluctant to give the Dail even a chance to make reasonable amendments, they've gone on strike.
 

sic transit

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the previous position was that they could get their way 100% of the time, (as long as government parties backed them) now they might be outvoted on a amendment they are reluctant to give the Dail even a chance to make reasonable amendments, they've gone on strike.
Not sure that reasonable is any kind of byword for this Dail. Bloody noses for the Government seems to underpin a lot of the activity of the Dail. That's not to say that some of what they have produced did not need pruning and altering but they've a lot of experience of doing it.
 

lostexpectation

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Not sure that reasonable is any kind of byword for this Dail. Bloody noses for the Government seems to underpin a lot of the activity of the Dail. That's not to say that some of what they have produced did not need pruning and altering but they've a lot of experience of doing it.
An article by Noel Whelan from January says
Arguably the only substantial piece of new legislation passed by the Dáil was the Act to tackle the housing and homelessness crisis
Noel Whelan: New politics means little legislation

which Leahy cites and says some senior civil servants are not proposing substantials bills because they don't have a 100% guarantee their bills will go through as they (and the gov parties) want.
 

TedHankey

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That does not say they object to amendments, but to amendments beyond recognition. Government can't protect bills so others can do as they wish with it. Civil servants are the ones who have to implement legislation anyway so no surprise to see them being involved.
If it's recognition they're worried about then I'm sure they can implement some kind of system where they would assign a unique ID to their suggested ideas so that no matter what changes are made by the democratically elected representatives, they can easily recognise what's what.
 

sic transit

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An article by Noel Whelan from January says
Noel Whelan: New politics means little legislation

which Leahy cites and says some senior civil servants are not proposing substantials bills because they don't have a 100% guarantee their bills will go through as they (and the gov parties) want.
Which is pretty much what I said. What's showing up as "legislation" is largely poorly crafted junk. What's your actual point with all of this anyway?
 
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sic transit

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If it's recognition they're worried about then I'm sure they can implement some kind of system where they would assign a unique ID to their suggested ideas so that no matter what changes are made by the democratically elected representatives, they can easily recognise what's what.
The democratically elected representatives don't actually make the changes, those civil servants do, on account of said representatives being clueless as to how to go about it.
 

lostexpectation

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Which is pretty much what I said. What's showing up as "legislation" is largely poorly crafted junk. What's your actual point with all of this anyway?
I just thought if it were try that some senior civil servants were are reluctant to propose legislation, it should be the top of every news bulletin.
 
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TedHankey

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The democratically elected representatives don't actually make the changes, those civil servants do, on account of said representatives being clueless as to how to go about it.
I was under the impression that legislation is created, amended and passed into law by our elected representatives and that the CS administer it. I would have no problem with ideas coming from the CS but should it not be read, debated, amended and passed (or rejected) by the assembly of representatives? Isn't it the representatives that get the mandate every few years to do that?
 

TedHankey

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Which is pretty much what I said. What's showing up as "legislation" is largely poorly crafted junk. What's your actual point with all of this anyway?
What makes it poorly crafted junk?
 

lostexpectation

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livingstone

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Civil Servants don't propose legislation. Ministers, or for private members bills, backbenchers, do.
 

lostexpectation

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Civil Servants don't propose legislation. Ministers, or for private members bills, backbenchers, do.
propose: Put forward (a plan or suggestion) for consideration by others.

Its a common word in the English language its not just a technical term for parliament
 

livingstone

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Civil Servants still don't 'propose' legislation.

If a minister wants to achieve a policy, civil servants give him or her their options for securing that policy. If the minister wants to pursue an option that requires legislation, then they instruct civil servants to go through the legislative process.

Usually, ministers and civil servants alike will prefer non legislative routes. Even when there is a parliamentary majority for the Government, legislation takes time and effort, and in the past, there's been a premium on Parliamentary time available for legislation, so Departments have to bid to take through legislation.

But if the only way to achieve a policy is through legislation, it's not for civil servants to 'propose' it. It's for ministers to determine their policy preferences.

Laying what is, ultimately, a ministerial decision at the door of civil servants makes no sense.
 


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