Spain's ETA declare ceasefire

SevenStars

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They're right, but that's not helpful language. First thing you do is welcome it, then you start talking about decommissioning.
That you will never see.

:p
 


Thac0man

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I can understand why you are saying this, but I should point out they have a track record of manufacturing their own arms (including sub-machine guns I think) so any decommissioning could be fairly meaningless given how easily they could re-arm
Hence the need to renounce violence. Ultimitly the cause of ETA has to be seperated from that of Basque independence. ETA no longer enjoy the support they did though it is arguable that the cause of Basque nationalism is still popular. In current and forseeable climate ETA are a block to achieving independence, other groups have and are doing more.
 

SevenStars

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Thac0man

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Im sure they will renounce violence when the state occupying their nation does.

You assume not only ownership of the Basque country is the sole right of ETA, but the cause of Basque nationalism is only theirs too too. As I have said, Herri Batasuna and ETA are not the only Basque nationist group - just the only ones with guns. Is possession of guns and bombs the reason to assume ETA have an ultimate right to control the Basque country? I see no logic in that what so ever.
 

CookieMonster

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They're right, but that's not helpful language. First thing you do is welcome it, then you start talking about decommissioning.
Not really. ETA are attempting to steal all the glory for none of the commitment.
 

Ramzi Nohra

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a couple of people have talked about HB being marginalised - but isnt it the case that HB were actually declared illegal and barred from standing in elections? (I am happy to be corrected on this if wrong)

I wouldnt have thought the Irish peace process would have advanced very far if SF had been declared illegal.


Although ETA are decades past their sell by date, the Spanish government has dealt with them, and the whole peace process, in a completely ham-fisted manner.
 

Jezza

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So the ETA retards have finally stopped killing local councillors because of Franco. Welcome to the 21st Century.

The most interesting post I have ever read about that part of europe on here was by someone who went there & observed a pseudo Stalinist dump where young people couldn't get jobs because their grandads all had jobs-for-life in state run basket-case factories. Why those people ever thought all their problems would be solved by becomming a Brussels basket-case instead of a Madrid one God only knows.

Maybe Gerry had a word, eh?
 

Keith-M

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So the ETA retards have finally stopped killing local councillors because of Franco. Welcome to the 21st Century.

The most interesting post I have ever read about that part of europe on here was by someone who went there & observed a pseudo Stalinist dump where young people couldn't get jobs because their grandads all had jobs-for-life in state run basket-case factories. Why those people ever thought all their problems would be solved by becomming a Brussels basket-case instead of a Madrid one God only knows.

Maybe Gerry had a word, eh?

Indeed and Gerry might have another word to let them know that this isn't going anywhere until there's verifiable decommissioning.
 

Ramzi Nohra

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Torture and state-sponsored assassinations by Spain go long after Franco.

"The most interesting post I have ever read about that part of europe on here was by someone who went there & observed a pseudo Stalinist dump where young people couldn't get jobs because their grandads all had jobs-for-life in state run basket-case factories. Why those people ever thought all their problems would be solved by becomming a Brussels basket-case instead of a Madrid one God only knows."

I would be slightly surprised if this was in the Basque country - its generally been a very entrpreneurial and industrial region. Could be wrong though.
 

IvoShandor

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...only ETAs ability to murder adds weight to Herri Batasuna. In reality they are a minority party now, powerless and marginalised even in the line up of pro-Basque political parties.

The Spanish government should not respond to this ceasefire, they should crush ETA once and for all. Engaging in any talks with ETA only invites them to rearm and break off talks at a time of their choosing with a bomb.
I'd not agree completely. The difference between Northern Ireland and the basque lands is that SF were able to acquire a popular mandate for themselves by overtaking the SDLP to become the pre-dominant voice of Northern nationalism. Herri Batasuna-or wahtever successor name they have now- have never managed that so they have no mandate that obliges the spanish government to talk with them. The Spanish government should be firm, and make it clear that HB will be engaged in talks,but only in proportion to their electoral mandate. Allocating any more importance to them is like rewarding them for stopping killing.
But I don't agree that the Madrid Government should start any kind of crack-down;keeping them at arms length and controlling the conditions, without any triumphalism is the right course. They need to keep the peace-party on board, for the "continuity/Real ETA will be back soon enough.
 
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Ramzi Nohra

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Ivo
Herri Batasuna were declared an illegal party and cant stand for election - thereby meaning it will be pretty hard for them to get much of an electoral mandate!

As you imply the relatively pro-ETA vote can find other manifestations, but clearly banning the main political party undermines their ability to get an electoral mandate which reflects their support.
 

JohnD66

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I was actually surprised on a visit to the Basque Country a year ago at how much support there was among young people for radical nationalism. It's not a majority or anything like it but it's a subsantial sector and if ETA went away it would in all likelihood get bigger.

At the moment, Batasuna is banned, as its youth movement Segi as are some newspapers - though not, curiously, Gara, the main radical daily.

It is crime to "support or glorify terrorism" in the Spain and the leader of Batasuna, Arnaldo Otegi is currently in jail for this. There are also a lot of people in prison for years fro things like burning bins and bank machines in riots. While ETA is irrelevant, or should be, the decriminalizing of Basque separatist movements is somthing that has to be addressed.

Re the regional government, the Socialists have been in power in the Basque Autonomous Community since 2009 in coalition with the Popular Party but with an overall minority of votes. The PNV, the main nationalist party, actually increased its vote substantially and most supporters of Batasuna (which was banned) did not vote at all.

Since Irish Republicans and Basque separatists are often compared and SF seems to have played a direct role in this ceasefire, here is an article I did on the historic links between Basque and Irish radical nationalism.

Irish Republicanism and Basque separatism ? parallel movements? | The Irish Story
 
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Ramzi Nohra

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That is a good article John
I had read most of the content before but I was interested in the similarity between Harris types and those ex-eterras who were now enthusiastic Spanish loyalists.
 

MacCoise2

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The most interesting post I have ever read about that part of europe on here was by someone who went there & observed a pseudo Stalinist dump where young people couldn't get jobs because their grandads all had jobs-for-life in state run basket-case factories. Why those people ever thought all their problems would be solved by becomming a Brussels basket-case instead of a Madrid one God only knows.
Where did you read that? Strange conisdering its the richest, most industrialised and propserous and enterpriisng part of the Spanish state but sure what are facts good for?

Hopefully, the end concluiosn will be a chnace for the Basque people in a refrendum to decide their own future but I suspoect that is far too radical an idea for part of the EU.
 

JohnD66

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That is a good article John
I had read most of the content before but I was interested in the similarity between Harris types and those ex-eterras who were now enthusiastic Spanish loyalists.
Thanks Ramzi.

Yeah it's an odd one about the former eta guys. Is it that embracing universalist left wing politics means a break with nationalism in the end? Or is it that old revolutionaries end up as arch conservatives? Or just a rejection of violence andan attempt to get rid of a sense of personal shame? I don't know.

Another thing I probably should have added in the article, but didn't, was that the culture of the 'struggle' has penetrated popular youth culture over there to a degree much more than in present day Ireland, even in the north. The 'borrokas' have their own clothing fashions, music, bars, festivals etc. It's almost like a counter culture type movement -like the anti-globalisation movement but much more deeply rooted.
 

JohnD66

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Hopefully, the end concluiosn will be a chnace for the Basque people in a refrendum to decide their own future but I suspoect that is far too radical an idea for part of the EU.
Not going to happen I'd say. Though it's going to be the key issue once ETA goes away (which it should). The PNV and other Basque nationalist parties are all behind this.

The Spanish government isn't going to concede the right to the Basque Country to determine it's future separate from Spain. This would be acknowledgement that the area had the right to secede.

Even if they did, what is the Basque Country, the 3 autonomous provinces? Does it include Navarre? Should Navarre be bound by the decision of the other three? What about the French provinces?

Tough questions ahead.
 

Ramzi Nohra

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Not going to happen I'd say. Though it's going to be the key issue once ETA goes away (which it should). The PNV and other Basque nationalist parties are all behind this.

The Spanish government isn't going to concede the right to the Basque Country to determine it's future separate from Spain. This would be acknowledgement that the area had the right to secede.

Even if they did, what is the Basque Country, the 3 autonomous provinces? Does it include Navarre? Should Navarre be bound by the decision of the other three? What about the French provinces?

Tough questions ahead.

You're probably right but that would be incredibly undemocratic. France would probably be the same re: Corsica.
 

JohnD66

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You're probably right but that would be incredibly undemocratic. France would probably be the same re: Corsica.
Yep, hence the conflict.

It's a complete fallacy to say that the violence of ETA is the only question there.
 

MacCoise2

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Anybody who saw how mental the Spanish are over Kosovar independence will be able to imagine the rabid centralist and yes,Francoist, tendencies still very prevalent in Castille


Cant see much progress while such regressive attitudes still exist
 

JohnD66

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Just ressurecting this thread in the light of ETA's permanent ceasefire (Eta ceasefire rejected by Spain - The Irish Times - Mon, Jan 10, 2011) and the izquierda abertzale (radical nationalist left)'s endorsement of solely peaceful and deomocratic means (Decoupling Eta - The Irish Times - Thu, Feb 10, 2011).

Batasuna is still banned, its leadership is still in prison for directing this party. ETA members are still being arrested - more justifiable perhaps - but most importantly - the new radical nationalist party - SORTU - that explicitly renounces violence, is also likely to be banned -at least the Spanish Department of Justice has asked the Courts to do this.For those with Spanish GARA - La Abogaca del Estado impugnar maana la inscripcin de Sortu ante el Supremo
For those without Basque politics: Hold your nose, and let them stand | The Economist

Given that the armed conflict, or if you prefer, campaign of terror, is now definitively over, how can this be justified in a democracy?
 


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