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Spain's Green Bubble ends in tears.


Volatire

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Feb 25, 2012
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Spain's Green Bubble has well and truly burst, leaving debts of nearly 30Bn euro.

Foreign investors poured money into Spanish wind and solar projects, drawn to generous subsidies during a decade-long economic boom that helped the country to become one of the biggest markets for investments in green energy.

The problem was that the cost of the subsidies were not passed on fully to consumers because that would have pushed prices to unprecedented highs.
Now foreign "investors" say they will sue Spain to force consumers and taxpayers to cough up.

Bizarrely, from an Irish perspective, the Spanish government is actually protecting the interests of her own citizens in this matter.

Exclusive: Foreign investors set to sue Spain over energy reform | Reuters
 

Sync

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That deficit, built up through years of the government holding down electricity prices at a level that would not cover regulated costs including renewables premiums, is at the heart of Spain's energy sector woes.
Uch. Idiots. That's the sort of rubbish they do in Venezuela with the oil. Just so nakedly political and stupid.

The international firms will sue, they'll probably win.

Similar to here, if the govt asked Intel to come to Ireland for instance 10 years ago with the promise of subsidies for 5 years, then decided to revoke that after 2 years, you'd expect Intel to be pretty ticked off.
 

Analyzer

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The government should not be protecting the citizens. What about the plight of the speculators ?

regards,
more EU rope.
 

Pat Gill

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Spain's Green Bubble has well and truly burst, leaving debts of nearly 30Bn euro.



Now foreign "investors" say they will sue Spain to force consumers and taxpayers to cough up.

Bizarrely, from an Irish perspective, the Spanish government is actually protecting the interests of her own citizens in this matter.

Exclusive: Foreign investors set to sue Spain over energy reform | Reuters
But I thought the plan was that taxpayers would have to rescue the evil green speculators just as they rescued your banking pals speculations :shock2:

The main litigants will be those investment firms who invested in the large Spanish solar thermal plants which you yourself were promoting a few years ago as an alternative to wind energy.

Here is another article free of charge for your overactive saliva gland's, this one is about Germany EnergyMarketPrice | News details

However what any of this has got to do with Ireland is a mystery to me, Ireland never had outrageous subsidies or Feed In Tariffs and there are no hidden public liabilities whatsoever.
 

Destiny's Soldier

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However what any of this has got to do with Ireland is a mystery to me, Ireland never had outrageous subsidies or Feed In Tariffs and there are no hidden public liabilities whatsoever.
ESB/Electric Ireland is to spend $30 Billion on Wind Turbines by 2020 or so. ESB gets the money from the taxpayer and then there's the Public Service Obligation levy. The point is that there is no need for Wind Turbines when there is already a working system in place from Coal / Gas Oil etc.

When you say there are no hidden liabilities, what planet are you on.

When the wind turbine developers go pop who'll end up footing the bill? I think $30 Billion is a bit of a liability myself.
 

Cato

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ESB/Electric Ireland is to spend $30 Billion on Wind Turbines by 2020 or so. ESB gets the money from the taxpayer and then there's the Public Service Obligation levy. The point is that there is no need for Wind Turbines when there is already a working system in place from Coal / Gas Oil etc.

When you say there are no hidden liabilities, what planet are you on.

When the wind turbine developers go pop who'll end up footing the bill? I think $30 Billion is a bit of a liability myself.
I took him to be engaging in sarcasm.
 

beazlebottom

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Jan 10, 2011
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Spain's Green Bubble has well and truly burst, leaving debts of nearly 30Bn euro.



Now foreign "investors" say they will sue Spain to force consumers and taxpayers to cough up.

Bizarrely, from an Irish perspective, the Spanish government is actually protecting the interests of her own citizens in this matter.

Exclusive: Foreign investors set to sue Spain over energy reform | Reuters
My goodness, a government actually looking after the interests of its citizens first - how utterly outrageous. Our craven Euro lickspittles must be shocked!
 

Sync

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My goodness, a government actually looking after the interests of its citizens first - how utterly outrageous. Our craven Euro lickspittles must be shocked!
Except the hole comes from their government cravenly minimising electricity prices below the market rate and the liability comes from the government trying to backtrack on commitments they gave in exchange for jobs and investment. This is just the government taking the easy way out for the third time.
 

patslatt

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But I thought the plan was that taxpayers would have to rescue the evil green speculators just as they rescued your banking pals speculations :shock2:

The main litigants will be those investment firms who invested in the large Spanish solar thermal plants which you yourself were promoting a few years ago as an alternative to wind energy.

Here is another article free of charge for your overactive saliva gland's, this one is about Germany EnergyMarketPrice | News details

However what any of this has got to do with Ireland is a mystery to me, Ireland never had outrageous subsidies or Feed In Tariffs and there are no hidden public liabilities whatsoever.
Weren't feed in tarifffs required to support Irish wind energy which would not be economic otherwise?
 

patslatt

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ESB/Electric Ireland is to spend $30 Billion on Wind Turbines by 2020 or so. ESB gets the money from the taxpayer and then there's the Public Service Obligation levy. The point is that there is no need for Wind Turbines when there is already a working system in place from Coal / Gas Oil etc.

When you say there are no hidden liabilities, what planet are you on.

When the wind turbine developers go pop who'll end up footing the bill? I think $30 Billion is a bit of a liability myself.
I thought the government looked for dividends from ESB,not to subsidise it.
 

neiphin

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However what any of this has got to do with Ireland is a mystery to me, Ireland never had outrageous subsidies or Feed In Tariffs and there are no hidden public liabilities whatsoever.
 

Pat Gill

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But I thought the plan was that taxpayers would have to rescue the evil green speculators just as they rescued your banking pals speculations :shock2:

The main litigants will be those investment firms who invested in the large Spanish solar thermal plants which you yourself were promoting a few years ago as an alternative to wind energy.

Here is another article free of charge for your overactive saliva gland's, this one is about Germany EnergyMarketPrice | News details

However what any of this has got to do with Ireland is a mystery to me, Ireland never had outrageous subsidies or Feed In Tariffs and there are no hidden public liabilities whatsoever.
I took him to be engaging in sarcasm.
Perhaps a little teensie bit towards the subject of the OP.

ESB/Electric Ireland is to spend $30 Billion on Wind Turbines by 2020 or so. ESB gets the money from the taxpayer and then there's the Public Service Obligation levy. The point is that there is no need for Wind Turbines when there is already a working system in place from Coal / Gas Oil etc.

When you say there are no hidden liabilities, what planet are you on.

When the wind turbine developers go pop who'll end up footing the bill? I think $30 Billion is a bit of a liability myself.
D S,

Haven't you heard the almost decade old news yet, ESB is now a business group rather than a state owned monolith, Electric Ireland will not be building anything other than more retail bills, some ESB companies invest in generation assets both here and abroad but I doubt that the figure will reach €30 billion by 2020 even if we include every single planned or already operational CCGT station or wind farm in every country in which they operate.

ESB is primarily funded by the international bond markets where it has a BBB+ rating and hasn't received tax payers money for a long time.

The PSO levy funds support in roughly equal amounts for, turf fired power stations, some gas fired generators and renewables and costs the consumer less than €3.50 per month. The PSO covers all of the supports in total every month, this is the bit that Spain and Germany left out, hence they have a problem Ireland does not.

Therefore no hidden liabilities and no bubble to burst.

Weren't feed in tarifffs required to support Irish wind energy which would not be economic otherwise?
In Ireland FITs were put in place to give comfort to the financing banks that minimum level of revenue would be quaranteed in order that loans could be repaid, other countries paid very generous FITs to ensure to guarantee profits.

Big difference.

I thought the government looked for dividends from ESB,not to subsidise it.
The ESB has paid substantial dividends to the government for a long time, sometimes as much as €3 or €4 hundred million.

Except the hole comes from their government cravenly minimising electricity prices below the market rate and the liability comes from the government trying to backtrack on commitments they gave in exchange for jobs and investment. This is just the government taking the easy way out for the third time.
Correct, as pointed out above the PSO Levy funds Irish FITs in full every year.


Prove it or lose it neiphin :lol:
 

Volatire

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Feb 25, 2012
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Eirgrid, Bord Gais, ESB are all borrowing heavily in their drive to implement mindless "renewable" energy targets.

The CER (so-called "regulator") ensures that electricity prices are raised to cover the debt servicing costs. In the same way that taxes will be raised to cover the debts of Irish National Building Society for a generation.

Spain refused to socialise the losses of her banks. And of the renewable energy spoofers.

Way to go, Spain!
 
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Pat Gill

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Eirgrid, Bord Gais, ESB are all borrowing heavily in their drive to implement mindless "renewable" energy targets.

The CER (so-called "regulator") ensures that electricity prices are raised to cover the debt servicing costs. In the same way that taxes will be raised to cover the debts of Irish National Building Society for a generation.

Spain refused to socialise the losses of her banks. And of the renewable energy spoofers.

Way to go, Spain!
Please make up your mind Volatire.

The regulator by its actions has ensured that theere is no bubble, the Spanish regulator didn't.

Way to go Ireland.

Your analogy with the celtic tiger banks is so askew it could open a bottle of wine.
 

feargach

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Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
4,995
Spain's Green Bubble has well and truly burst, leaving debts of nearly 30Bn euro.
Now foreign "investors" say they will sue Spain to force consumers and taxpayers to cough up.
Bizarrely, from an Irish perspective, the Spanish government is actually protecting the interests of her own citizens in this matter.
Exclusive: Foreign investors set to sue Spain over energy reform | Reuters
To me, the most important aspect of the story is the whinging and childishness of businessmen. When they're corrupting legislators and agitating for their pet policies they trumpet the supposed virtues of rugged individualism and keeping government off their backs.

Now they're off to court because the free handouts they're getting from the worst-hit economy in western Europe's hard-pressed taxpayers aren't quite big enough.

For the rest of the world the by-word is "You win some, you lose some". For these guys, the word is "You win some, you sue the taxpayers for compo for the ones you don't win". Not a bad gig if you can afford the politicians.
 
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