Still support the IMF takeover of Ireland?

feargach

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Something for idiot IMF cheerleaders to consider before they repeat their demands for the IMF to take command of Irish economic policy.

The IMF (through its partner organisation the World Bank) imposed a law on Bolivia (specifically Ley 2029) which granted a monopoly over literally all water resources to Aguas del Tunari, a consortium of major EU companies plus US giant Bechtel. 2029 not only granted AdT all the existing water resources belonging to the previous public service water supply system; the law even allowed AdT to claim dominion over private irrigation systems which had never been part of the public water system. Even rainwater was not excluded.

The law allowed people to be punished for collecting rainwater from their own roofs.

You really want these people in charge of your economy? Really? If they're the kind of types who'd make rainwater-collecting illegal, do you truly think they'd not stoop to nasty shenanigans when they get Ireland in their clutches?

What would stop them, for example, from tolling all roads? They don't have to stand for election in Ireland, and you'd be insane to claim that a body that bans rainwater would be too scrupulous to put tolls on roads. What qualms would stop such people from adding a €500 surcharge for electricity provision for everyone outside of a major urban centre?

This is what they do: establish monopolies by law, then charge locals through their teeth to get the vital services. Anyone who manages to attain the service without going through the monopoly is at risk of legal punishment.

Why are you so eager for that to happen to Ireland?
 


bormotello

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Something for idiot IMF cheerleaders to consider before they repeat their demands for the IMF to take command of Irish economic policy.
Why you don't want to tell us that IMF didn't do any damage to Iceland more then Icelandic banks did?

Why if greens or labour will introduce water tax to subsidize inefficiencies in public sector and preserve fat cats incomes, it will be good, but if IMF will impose the same tax to reduce Irish debt and make life of our kids better – it will be bad?
 

NewRepublic

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Something for idiot IMF cheerleaders to consider before they repeat their demands for the IMF to take command of Irish economic policy.

The IMF (through its partner organisation the World Bank) imposed a law on Bolivia (specifically Ley 2029) which granted a monopoly over literally all water resources to Aguas del Tunari, a consortium of major EU companies plus US giant Bechtel. 2029 not only granted AdT all the existing water resources belonging to the previous public service water supply system; the law even allowed AdT to claim dominion over private irrigation systems which had never been part of the public water system. Even rainwater was not excluded.

The law allowed people to be punished for collecting rainwater from their own roofs.

You really want these people in charge of your economy? Really? If they're the kind of types who'd make rainwater-collecting illegal, do you truly think they'd not stoop to nasty shenanigans when they get Ireland in their clutches?

What would stop them, for example, from tolling all roads? They don't have to stand for election in Ireland, and you'd be insane to claim that a body that bans rainwater would be too scrupulous to put tolls on roads. What qualms would stop such people from adding a €500 surcharge for electricity provision for everyone outside of a major urban centre?

This is what they do: establish monopolies by law, then charge locals through their teeth to get the vital services. Anyone who manages to attain the service without going through the monopoly is at risk of legal punishment.

Why are you so eager for that to happen to Ireland?


You really hav'nt got a clue.
 

feargach

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Why you don't want to tell us that IMF didn't do any damage to Iceland more then Icelandic banks did?

Why if greens or labour will introduce water tax to subsidize inefficiencies in public sector and preserve fat cats incomes, it will be good, but if IMF will impose the same tax to reduce Irish debt and make life of our kids better – it will be bad?
Because greens or labour or any other government you don't like can be removed from office at election time.

The IMF and World Bank are immune from democratic removal and are thus much worse than domestic, sovereign rulers.
 

feargach

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Why do you think we will have a choice in the matter?
Because we do.

We citizens can prevent the IMF takeover by buying our own nation's bonds.

At the moment, we are not doing that, mostly because we are too ignorant and short-sighted to see how much worse an IMF takeover would be than the temporary discomfort of buying our own nation's bonds.

The increased charges we will pay for toll roads, extra hospital charges, school fees and water charges, and increased VAT, on their own, will outweigh the small sum that it would take to prevent those things from happening under IMF imposition.

When the IMF takes over, these policies will be imposed permanently. So when calculating the cost of the IMF takeover you have to multiply the costs accross your natural life.

If we were to make the adjustment ourselves, without IMF imposition, we could have three or four rough years, followed by a return to some kind of vague semi-fairness.

Unfortunately, we have lost our capacity to make rational decisions so we are throwing away the rest of our lives as we sleepwalk our way out of local control of the local economy.
 

feargach

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lets see life under zanuFF or under the IMF.

i will take the IMF please.
How about you have a little sense, wait until 2012, then you get to have neither of them!

The current government can only control your decisions until May 2012 (but more likely before then). The IMF can control the rest of your life.

Why is it you lack the cop-on to see that?

Incidentally, don't you see that you are wrong, that it's not even an either-or situation?

You can very well have the current government sit out its term AND bring in the IMF.

You don't even get a choice on that. You have failed to follow the facts.
 

Dreaded_Estate

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Because we do.

We citizens can prevent the IMF takeover by buying our own nation's bonds.

At the moment, we are not doing that, mostly because we are too ignorant and short-sighted to see how much worse an IMF takeover would be than the temporary discomfort of buying our own nation's bonds.

The increased charges we will pay for toll roads, extra hospital charges, school fees and water charges, and increased VAT, on their own, will outweigh the small sum that it would take to prevent those things from happening under IMF imposition.

When the IMF takes over, these policies will be imposed permanently. So when calculating the cost of the IMF takeover you have to multiply the costs accross your natural life.

If we were to make the adjustment ourselves, without IMF imposition, we could have three or four rough years, followed by a return to some kind of vague semi-fairness.

Unfortunately, we have lost our capacity to make rational decisions so we are throwing away the rest of our lives as we sleepwalk our way out of local control of the local economy.
There isn't enough private money in the country to fund the running of it and the bailing out of the banks.

And even if there was the money to buy our bonds would come out of the banks, that would need to be replaced by the government, which would come from where....

The bank bailout has put us in a position we cannot get out of.
 

bormotello

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Because greens or labour or any other government you don't like can be removed from office at election time.

The IMF and World Bank are immune from democratic removal and are thus much worse than domestic, sovereign rulers.
Replacing one part of political establishment in office by another part will not remove problems away from country and LP/FG government will pursue policies, which will be dictated by their core supporter and markets, not policies which are good for whole country.
IMF are not nice guys, they have a lot of disadvantages, but they free from one main problem in Ireland – populism
 

NewRepublic

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How about you have a little sense, wait until 2012, then you get to have neither of them!

The current government can only control your decisions until May 2012 (but more likely before then). The IMF can control the rest of your life.

Why is it you lack the cop-on to see that?

Incidentally, don't you see that you are wrong, that it's not even an either-or situation?

You can very well have the current government sit out its term AND bring in the IMF.

You don't even get a choice on that. You have failed to follow the facts.

For god sake, the IMF ar'nt going to get a free run here. If there's a bail out it will be combined EU/IMF funding, and there will be very little deviation from current policy, new government or not. So off you go with your hysterics.
 

Mister men

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In response to OP. Yes.
 

roc_

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Obviously, people must be desperate if they'd prefer the IMF over the current ruling elite.

But people see the IMF as the one authority whom might help to loosen the grip of the current ruling elite over our lives.

And, once that is done, the IMF are happy to go, once they have extracted their price.

The way the current ruling elite order our lives - our working lives, our social lives, the dues they extract by stealth for land, property, doing business, what have you...

The IMF seem to offer a solution. For me, it was this article that made me think they might form part of a solution - The Quiet Coup
 

foreignfield80

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Because we do.

We citizens can prevent the IMF takeover by buying our own nation's bonds.
What do you suggest we citizens buy them with exactly?
 

bormotello

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How about you have a little sense, wait until 2012, then you get to have neither of them!

The current government can only control your decisions until May 2012 (but more likely before then). The IMF can control the rest of your life.
All damage is already done, probably FF/GP will make it even worse
It is true that with IMF we can pay for rest our lives, but without IMF our kids also will pay for the rest of their lives
 

TradCat

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roc

Interesting article

Typically, these countries are in a desperate economic situation for one simple reason—the powerful elites within them overreached in good times and took too many risks. Emerging-market governments and their private-sector allies commonly form a tight-knit—and, most of the time, genteel—oligarchy, running the country rather like a profit-seeking company in which they are the controlling shareholders. When a country like Indonesia or South Korea or Russia grows, so do the ambitions of its captains of industry. As masters of their mini-universe, these people make some investments that clearly benefit the broader economy, but they also start making bigger and riskier bets. They reckon—correctly, in most cases—that their political connections will allow them to push onto the government any substantial problems that arise.
Ring any bells?
 

feargach

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What do you suggest we citizens buy them with exactly?
Everyday, people spend tens of millions buying non-vital imported goods and services. Car sales are up. Ipods and laptops are still being purchased. Cinemas showing US movies are far from empty at weekends. People are still choosing instant gratification over saving their own behinds.

As for the defence of the IMF, that is the most pathetic wishful thinking I've seen in a long time.
 

Kevin Doyle

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As for the defence of the IMF, that is the most pathetic wishful thinking I've seen in a long time.
Like most things in Irish politics, that will only become apparant after the damage is done.
 

foreignfield80

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Everyday, people spend tens of millions buying non-vital imported goods and services. Car sales are up. Ipods and laptops are still being purchased. Cinemas showing US movies are far from empty at weekends. People are still choosing instant gratification over saving their own behinds.

As for the defence of the IMF, that is the most pathetic wishful thinking I've seen in a long time.
Nonsense, people are free to spend their own money however they choose, government has already levied enough money from the same citizens in taxes, now you say we should spend our disposable income to further shore up a failed system of patronage for the well connected, let it fail as it should and then let the state start living within it's own means.

Or maybe there should be a compulsory bond purchase levy added to the budget....
 


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